Becoming the Right Person vs. Doing Right for Right Reasons

[seer]

The external world is either real, or it is an illusion, and if an illusion, then its of the mind alone, it doesn't exist as an external reality if its an illusion. Its either real, and corresponds with the mind, or its not real and is only an illusion of the mind. It can't be both an illusion, a deception of the mind, as well as an external reality. Take your pick.



No, If you are not yourself an illusion, Cogito ergo sum, then neither is the external world of your experience an illusion. You are a part of the world that you live in and experience, if that world is an illusion, then so are you.

No Jim, again that does not follow. If I am deluded about the nature of reality, there is still a me that is deluded. If an insane man is deluded about reality there is still a thinking person that is deluded. If you are living in the Matrix with a false reality being induced into your brain there is still a you that is being deceived, experiencing a false reality.

[Tassman]

Perhaps, but you can not make a deductive argument for reality as you perceive it, yet you believe

You cannot make a sound deductive argument for reality as you perceive it either, yet you believe in your reality too.

... But I do tend to agree with Kant, without justice a moral system would be irrational.

Of course you do, otherwise your precious deity would be out of a job. But, in fact, a moral system is about the survival of the species not about keeping the gods happy.

In other words if I could protect my own blood and create wealth by taking advantage of others with little or no exposure to negative consequences it would be irrational for me not to.

Yes we all have that tendency, look at Trump and his unbridled capitalism. But it must be done in such a way that it doesn’t destroy the community...this is where hypocrisy about “community concerns” comes in.

So a moral system that lacks justice can be rational in your view. We will have to disagree.

A "moral system" is merely a system of behavioural rules based upon our genetic predisposition to live in groups. We determine what is just or unjust.

Sheesh, that is not the point Tass. Which is the inability to make a logical argument justifying reality as we perceive it.

We have no choice other than to live in "reality" as we perceive it.

[seer]

You cannot make a sound deductive argument for reality as you perceive it either, yet you believe in your reality too.

Right Tass, at least here we share the same faith! Doesn't that make you feel all warm inside!

Of course you do, otherwise your precious deity would be out of a job. But, in fact, a moral system is about the survival of the species not about keeping the gods happy.

And your system would still be irrational.

Yes we all have that tendency, look at Trump and his unbridled capitalism. But it must be done in such a way that it doesn’t destroy the community...this is where hypocrisy about “community concerns” comes in.

That is the point, if there were no real consequences in this life then taking advantage of our fellow man for personal gain would be the rational thing to do.

A "moral system" is merely a system of behavioural rules based upon our genetic predisposition to live in groups. We determine what is just or unjust.

So Trump is genetically predisposed to do what he does too - correct?

[JimL]

No Jim, again that does not follow. If I am deluded about the nature of reality, there is still a me that is deluded. If an insane man is deluded about reality there is still a thinking person that is deluded. If you are living in the Matrix with a false reality being induced into your brain there is still a you that is being deceived, experiencing a false reality.

Not sure I'm following you seer, what is the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to figure out whether or not you are just a mind within the which is an imagined external reality, rather than a mind, outside of which there exist a real external reality? What difference would that make, the real or imagined external reality would still be the same in nature, would still correspond to what goes on in your mind. So perhaps I'm not understanding your question as to - "does what goes on in your mind correspond with reality."

[seer]

Not sure I'm following you seer, what is the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to figure out whether or not you are just a mind within the which is an imagined external reality, rather than a mind, outside of which there exist a real external reality? What difference would that make, the real or imagined external reality would still be the same in nature, would still correspond to what goes on in your mind. So perhaps I'm not understanding your question as to - "does what goes on in your mind correspond with reality."

Jim, this is the argument - it is logically possible that we are being deceived by what we think is reality. You saw the Matrix movies correct? In other words you can't deductively prove that what you are experiencing as reality is reality. Look at it this way - we have all had dreams that seemed real at the time, they seemed like reality - but weren't. This is along the same lines. Or the brain in the vat - your brain (you) is in a vat and a made scientist is inducing all the thoughts you have about reality. Those are false, but you think that you are experiencing reality.

[JimL]

Jim, this is the argument - it is logically possible that we are being deceived by what we think is reality. You saw the Matrix movies correct? In other words you can't deductively prove that what you are experiencing as reality is reality. Look at it this way - we have all had dreams that seemed real at the time, they seemed like reality - but weren't. This is along the same lines. Or the brain in the vat - your brain (you) is in a vat and a made scientist is inducing all the thoughts you have about reality. Those are false, but you think that you are experiencing reality.

Thats not right seer, if you are in a matrix then there is no other reality, you're mind can't be deluded if its existence itself is part of a matrix, the reality, or the illusion of that reality, is what it is. Same thing with dreams, you are not being deluded, you're dreams are the reality of your experience. They have nothing to do with an external reality, so to ask the question of whether or not they correspond to the external reality doesn't make sense.

[seer]

Thats not right seer, if you are in a matrix then there is no other reality, you're mind can't be deluded if its existence itself is part of a matrix, the reality, or the illusion of that reality, is what it is. Same thing with dreams, you are not being deluded, you're dreams are the reality of your experience. They have nothing to do with an external reality, so to ask the question of whether or not they correspond to the external reality doesn't make sense.

Jim, in the Matrix you think what you are experiencing is real, reality - but it is not. It is a make believe experience. Yes you are part of the greater (real) reality, but you don't know what that greater reality actually is, you only know the make believe realityworld that is being induced into your brain. Make believe is what you think is real.

[JimL]

Jim, in the Matrix you think what you are experiencing is real, reality - but it is not. It is a make believe experience. Yes you are part of the greater (real) reality, but you don't know what that greater reality actually is, you only know the make believe realityworld that is being induced into your brain. Make believe is what you think is real.

No, if you are actually in the matrix, then you are part of that reality, you are not something from the outside entering the inside. The matrix is the reality if you belong to it, there is no greater external reality as far as anything or anyone belonging to the matrix goes. Whether or not there was another world, another reality, outside of the matrix, would be irrelevant if you were part of the matrix world.

[seer]

No, if you are actually in the matrix, then you are part of that reality, you are not something from the outside entering the inside. The matrix is the reality if you belong to it, there is no greater external reality as far as anything or anyone belonging to the matrix goes. Whether or not there was another world, another reality, outside of the matrix, would be irrelevant if you were part of the matrix world.

Right Jim you are part of the Matrix, but the reality that you know in your head, that you experience, is make believe. So you think that the make believe world is the real world.

[JimL]

Right Jim you are part of the Matrix, but the reality that you know in your head, that you experience, is make believe. So you think that the make believe world is the real world.

Why are you assuming the existence of an external reality? If you are part of the matrix world, then another world external to the matrix world doesn't make the Matrix world make believe, the existence of a reality external to the Matrix world would be irrelevant to those belonging to the matrix world. For instance, if there is a universe external to the one we belong to, does that make our universe make believe?

[seer]

Why are you assuming the existence of an external reality? If you are part of the matrix world, then another world external to the matrix world doesn't make the Matrix world make believe, the existence of a reality external to the Matrix world would be irrelevant to those belonging to the matrix world. For instance, if there is a universe external to the one we belong to, does that make our universe make believe?

What? The point is Jim, the make believe world that the Matrix is causing you to experience in your mind is not real - but you think it is real, it is the only thing you know. You live in a pod but the Matrix is cause you to believe that you live in a normal world - cars, buildings other people going to work, etc... But these are not real.

[Tassman]

Right Tass, at least here we share the same faith! Doesn't that make you feel all warm inside!

You are the one erroneously claiming that you can make a sound deductive argument for god-based reality, not me.

And your system would still be irrational.

Rationality is only of use if it facilitates 'survival', which is the natural instinct of all living things.

That is the point, if there were no real consequences in this life then taking advantage of our fellow man for personal gain would be the rational thing to do.

You mean that without the fear of Hell, then we run amok exploiting all and sundry.

This is demonstrably untrue. Maintaining a cohesive community is the naturally evolved thing to do. Some greedy people try to have it both ways, but the bottom line is survival of the community, not profit.

So Trump is genetically predisposed to do what he does too - correct?

Moral behaviour evolved as a means of restraining individual selfishness in order to build more cooperative groups. Trump's behaviour is greedy and immoral.

[Tassman]

What? The point is Jim, the make believe world that the Matrix is causing you to experience in your mind is not real - but you think it is real, it is the only thing you know. You live in a pod but the Matrix is cause you to believe that you live in a normal world - cars, buildings other people going to work, etc... But these are not real.

Who are you to say what constitutes the “real world” and the "unreal word"? How would you know?

[JimL]

What? The point is Jim, the make believe world that the Matrix is causing you to experience in your mind is not real - but you think it is real, it is the only thing you know. You live in a pod but the Matrix is cause you to believe that you live in a normal world - cars, buildings other people going to work, etc... But these are not real.

I think that what you are getting at is whether or not the world of our experience exists only in a mind of some sort, or if the world of our experience is external to the mind. What difference does it make if the seemingly external world is of the mind, or exists of itself apart from the mind, in either case, whether external or internal it would still be actual, and would still, in either case, correspond to the mind.

[seer]

I think that what you are getting at is whether or not the world of our experience exists only in a mind of some sort, or if the world of our experience is external to the mind. What difference does it make if the seemingly external world is of the mind, or exists of itself apart from the mind, in either case, whether external or internal it would still be actual, and would still, in either case, correspond to the mind.

Jim you are missing the point, if your mental experience is a deception then you don't know what the real world actually is. You believe the deception is the real world - like in the Matrix. But the larger point is that there is no way to logically prove that what you are experiencing in your mind does actually corresponds to reality.