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Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Becoming the Right Person vs. Doing Right for Right Reasons

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Tass you are perfectly free to worship Allah, or Thor, or whoever - I will worship the only begotten Son of God - we will see who fares better in the end.
    That is, of course, presupposing there is an “end” in the form described by religion.
    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      The most important thing is that our behavior pleases and glorifies God, the rest is academic...
      That is presupposing God exists. Any reason for doing so?
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Charles View Post
        That is presupposing God exists. Any reason for doing so?
        Sure, a rational universe and your rational mind (such as it is) and your longing for universal moral truths.

        “Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” C.S. Lewis
        Last edited by seer; 06-25-2017, 05:20 PM.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Oh really? And what happens when competing religions hold absolute beliefs which are mutually exclusive?
          Two words: Cage Match.
          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Charles View Post
            That is presupposing God exists. Any reason for doing so?
            At least as much reason as there is for supposing that He does not. I have always thought agnosticism was way more logical than atheism.*

            * My definitions:

            Theists = God exists
            Agnostic = I just don't know if God exists
            Atheists = God does not exist

            This is based on the meanings of the words rather than some rationalizations.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
              Two words: Cage Match.
              Yes exactly!

              Otherwise known as wars of religion.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Tass you are perfectly free to worship Allah, or Thor, or whoever - I will worship the only begotten Son of God - we will see who fares better in the end.
                We will both fare exactly the same in the end. Namely die! This is what happens to all living things and you have no substantive reason to say otherwise.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  “Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” C.S. Lewis
                  "We evolved to be good at thinking because it had survival value" seems just as good an explanation as "God created us to be good at thinking". Slightly better even, since God might have created us to be bad at thinking but to falsely believe we are good at it, whereas evolution would have weeded out such self-deception. While I used to enjoy Lewis' open-minded theology (his theology of hell, for example, in The Great Divorce, is quite different to mainstream protestant thought), his logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
                  Last edited by Starlight; 06-26-2017, 03:39 AM.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    We will both fare exactly the same in the end. Namely die!
                    Well I'm going to reincarnate in a new body with no memories of my previous life.











                    Not sure that's any different to dying, but it sure sounds cooler.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Well I'm going to reincarnate in a new body with no memories of my previous life.
                      Well, good luck with that.

                      Not sure that's any different to dying, but it sure sounds cooler.


                      If you have no memories of your previous life can your really say that it is "you"?
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        His [CS Lewis'] logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
                        Yes. It ignores a fourth possibility that the Jesus story with its miracles and resurrection, is legend.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          "We evolved to be good at thinking because it had survival value" seems just as good an explanation as "God created us to be good at thinking". Slightly better even, since God might have created us to be bad at thinking but to falsely believe we are good at it, whereas evolution would have weeded out such self-deception. While I used to enjoy Lewis' open-minded theology (his theology of hell, for example, in The Great Divorce, is quite different to mainstream protestant thought), his logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
                          Lewis' logical arguments are very week. I have gone through several of them and found none convincing. It does take time, however, to find the error. But I tend to think this is because he is such a good writer. I would not claim he has the intention to mislead, but his very good writing makes very weak arguments look a whole lot better. In the stuff seer just quoted we get a rather premature understanding of evolution, if you can even call it an understanding, it is rather a misunderstanding.
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            At least as much reason as there is for supposing that He does not. I have always thought agnosticism was way more logical than atheism.*

                            * My definitions:

                            Theists = God exists
                            Agnostic = I just don't know if God exists
                            Atheists = God does not exist

                            This is based on the meanings of the words rather than some rationalizations.
                            Very fair point to make. I am agnostic but that does not mean that I find all Gods equally likely to exist. I do not find it likely at all that the God seer points to exists, nor do I find it likely at all that Thor or Allah exist. That is not to say you can rule out the idea that there could be a God who is way beyond the grasp of our reasoning and logic and our senses. That is a question we simply cannot answer.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              "We evolved to be good at thinking because it had survival value" seems just as good an explanation as "God created us to be good at thinking". Slightly better even, since God might have created us to be bad at thinking but to falsely believe we are good at it, whereas evolution would have weeded out such self-deception. While I used to enjoy Lewis' open-minded theology (his theology of hell, for example, in The Great Divorce, is quite different to mainstream protestant thought), his logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
                              First Lewis' minor at Cambridge was Philosophy and received the First in Greats in Philosophy and was philosophy tutor at University College, so his arguments are not nearly as bad as you suggest and was probably better educated in Philosophy than any of us. Second, he probably didn't give much weight to critical scholarship since he knew what the New Testament actually taught. Third, Lewis did believe in evolution (see his book the Problem of Pain) but that a rational universe and a rationally ordered or guided process best explained our rationality. Victor Reppert fleshes the argument out more in his "C. S. Lewis's Dangerous Idea: In Defense of the Argument from Reason."

                              You can get an overview of the "argument from Reason" here: http://www.lewissociety.org/reason.php Or pick up Lewis' "Miracles", it goes much deeper.
                              Last edited by seer; 06-26-2017, 06:59 AM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                Lewis' logical arguments are very week. I have gone through several of them and found none convincing. It does take time, however, to find the error. But I tend to think this is because he is such a good writer. I would not claim he has the intention to mislead, but his very good writing makes very weak arguments look a whole lot better. In the stuff seer just quoted we get a rather premature understanding of evolution, if you can even call it an understanding, it is rather a misunderstanding.
                                Really, have you ever read Miracles? His arguments are not weak.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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