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Thread: Becoming the Right Person vs. Doing Right for Right Reasons

  1. #21
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    Two words: Cage Match.
    Yes exactly!

    Otherwise known as wars of religion.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  2. #22
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Tass you are perfectly free to worship Allah, or Thor, or whoever - I will worship the only begotten Son of God - we will see who fares better in the end.
    We will both fare exactly the same in the end. Namely die! This is what happens to all living things and you have no substantive reason to say otherwise.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #23
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    “Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” C.S. Lewis
    "We evolved to be good at thinking because it had survival value" seems just as good an explanation as "God created us to be good at thinking". Slightly better even, since God might have created us to be bad at thinking but to falsely believe we are good at it, whereas evolution would have weeded out such self-deception. While I used to enjoy Lewis' open-minded theology (his theology of hell, for example, in The Great Divorce, is quite different to mainstream protestant thought), his logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
    Last edited by Starlight; 06-26-2017 at 09:39 AM.

  4. Amen Charles amen'd this post.
  5. #24
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    We will both fare exactly the same in the end. Namely die!
    Well I'm going to reincarnate in a new body with no memories of my previous life.











    Not sure that's any different to dying, but it sure sounds cooler.

  6. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  7. #25
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    Well I'm going to reincarnate in a new body with no memories of my previous life.
    Well, good luck with that.

    Not sure that's any different to dying, but it sure sounds cooler.


    If you have no memories of your previous life can your really say that it is "you"?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  9. #26
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    His [CS Lewis'] logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
    Yes. It ignores a fourth possibility that the Jesus story with its miracles and resurrection, is legend.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  10. Amen Charles, Starlight amen'd this post.
  11. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    "We evolved to be good at thinking because it had survival value" seems just as good an explanation as "God created us to be good at thinking". Slightly better even, since God might have created us to be bad at thinking but to falsely believe we are good at it, whereas evolution would have weeded out such self-deception. While I used to enjoy Lewis' open-minded theology (his theology of hell, for example, in The Great Divorce, is quite different to mainstream protestant thought), his logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
    Lewis' logical arguments are very week. I have gone through several of them and found none convincing. It does take time, however, to find the error. But I tend to think this is because he is such a good writer. I would not claim he has the intention to mislead, but his very good writing makes very weak arguments look a whole lot better. In the stuff seer just quoted we get a rather premature understanding of evolution, if you can even call it an understanding, it is rather a misunderstanding.

  12. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    At least as much reason as there is for supposing that He does not. I have always thought agnosticism was way more logical than atheism.*

    * My definitions:

    Theists = God exists
    Agnostic = I just don't know if God exists
    Atheists = God does not exist

    This is based on the meanings of the words rather than some rationalizations.
    Very fair point to make. I am agnostic but that does not mean that I find all Gods equally likely to exist. I do not find it likely at all that the God seer points to exists, nor do I find it likely at all that Thor or Allah exist. That is not to say you can rule out the idea that there could be a God who is way beyond the grasp of our reasoning and logic and our senses. That is a question we simply cannot answer.

  13. #29
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    "We evolved to be good at thinking because it had survival value" seems just as good an explanation as "God created us to be good at thinking". Slightly better even, since God might have created us to be bad at thinking but to falsely believe we are good at it, whereas evolution would have weeded out such self-deception. While I used to enjoy Lewis' open-minded theology (his theology of hell, for example, in The Great Divorce, is quite different to mainstream protestant thought), his logical arguments were never his strong suit (e.g. also the 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' Trilemma that completely ignores the fact that most critical scholars even in Lewis' own time didn't think the historical Jesus had ever claimed to be God).
    First Lewis' minor at Cambridge was Philosophy and received the First in Greats in Philosophy and was philosophy tutor at University College, so his arguments are not nearly as bad as you suggest and was probably better educated in Philosophy than any of us. Second, he probably didn't give much weight to critical scholarship since he knew what the New Testament actually taught. Third, Lewis did believe in evolution (see his book the Problem of Pain) but that a rational universe and a rationally ordered or guided process best explained our rationality. Victor Reppert fleshes the argument out more in his "C. S. Lewis's Dangerous Idea: In Defense of the Argument from Reason."

    You can get an overview of the "argument from Reason" here: http://www.lewissociety.org/reason.php Or pick up Lewis' "Miracles", it goes much deeper.
    Last edited by seer; 06-26-2017 at 12:59 PM.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  14. #30
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Lewis' logical arguments are very week. I have gone through several of them and found none convincing. It does take time, however, to find the error. But I tend to think this is because he is such a good writer. I would not claim he has the intention to mislead, but his very good writing makes very weak arguments look a whole lot better. In the stuff seer just quoted we get a rather premature understanding of evolution, if you can even call it an understanding, it is rather a misunderstanding.
    Really, have you ever read Miracles? His arguments are not weak.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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