Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Becoming the Right Person vs. Doing Right for Right Reasons

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Charles View Post
    And you might have had very different thoughts on God if you were raised in a different time and place. After all it is only your personal view on God.
    True, but if I was born in a Christian culture my view may be quite similar.

    But it is interesting to see you so openly declaring your view that slavery is not an absurdity since (in your opinion) it violates no law of logic. And the same, it seems, goes for the humiliating descriptions of homosexuals. If your religion was founded in another period, you might have had very different thought on this.
    Charles, it does not change the fact that it is not a logical absurdity - your objection is largely emotion driven (and I'm not saying that that is necessarily a bad thing). But if you were a white man born in the Antebellum South or a black Muslim born in Africa today you probably would have a very different view of slavery. And no, the teachings of Christ are universal and certain, and for the most part, not culturally relative.

    My objections to these things are not based on my personal interest or my particular culture. I found these these to be morally wrong, lacking any moral justification, despite the fact that I grew up among people making exactly the claims that you do.
    So you are saying that these are only your personal moral objections? And really Charles, I have no idea how you would decide what is justified or not.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      True, but if I was born in a Christian culture my view may be quite similar.



      Charles, it does not change the fact that it is not a logical absurdity - your objection is largely emotion driven (and I'm not saying that that is necessarily a bad thing). But if you were a white man born in the Antebellum South or a black Muslim born in Africa today you probably would have a very different view of slavery. And no, the teachings of Christ are universal and certain, and for the most part, not culturally relative.



      So you are saying that these are only your personal moral objections? And really Charles, I have no idea how you would decide what is justified or not.
      You once again make the very basic fallacy to assume that because a person holds something, he can only do so for personal reasons. Your conclusion is written beforehand, but it is wrong.

      And by the way, I do not need you to tell me what I am driven by. I know what I think, so your pointing to the “emotional” seems to be based on an idea that you might get some of the readers to believe in that simplification. I, of course, know that it is wrong.

      You would probably also find it wrong if I made the claim that you only believed for emotional reasons?
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Charles View Post
        You once again make the very basic fallacy to assume that because a person holds something, he can only do so for personal reasons. Your conclusion is written beforehand, but it is wrong.
        Then school me? How is your personal opinion other than personal?

        And by the way, I do not need you to tell me what I am driven by. I know what I think, so your pointing to the “emotional” seems to be based on an idea that you might get some of the readers to believe in that simplification. I, of course, know that it is wrong.
        Then tell me why slavery is objectively or universally wrong.

        You would probably also find it wrong if I made the claim that you only believed for emotional reasons?
        I really don't have a problem with an emotional or intuitively driven sense of right or wrong. I think that is what it means to be human, in part.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Then school me? How is your personal opinion other than personal?
          Well, just remember that if you want to hold this, then exactly the same goes for everything you say yourself. It is all just seer’s personal opinion. Then, how can you even talk about God having a purpose or anything else for that matter?

          Let me make it very obvious for you. You just made the statement: “How is your personal opinion other than personal?” This is a statement you made. It is a statement by a specific person. Would it be fair if I refused to answer claiming it is just a subjective question? This is just one man’s question and basically it has got nothing to it? The reason you wrote it was because you thought it would have a far more general appeal. If you did not, there would be no reason to ask the question and expect it to be challenging?

          I find your idea completely wrong and have written quite a lot on it. Read A misunderstanding of subjectivity: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post451896

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Then tell me why slavery is objectively or universally wrong.
          The golden rule is just one out of many, many reason to oppose to holding slaves.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          I really don't have a problem with an emotional or intuitively driven sense of right or wrong. I think that is what it means to be human, in part.
          The christian position on this?

          And your emotions or your intuition sees no problem with slavery? So, to sum up, what we basically get from you is that you base your view on emotions or your intuition in part, and apart from that you base it on a God whom you cannot prove the existence of, and this entire foundation on which you accept slavery?

          Let me ask you a few questions:

          Is slavery only wrong if it follow from the Bible that it is wrong?

          Is slavery good or ok if the Bible contains guidelines on how to keep slaves?

          Do you feel no need at all to consider guidelines found in the Bible or do you just follow without any reflection?

          It seems you find all values to be subjective if they are not in the Bible. Do you basically hold that if it was not for your faith, you would be a nihilist?

          Where do you basically differ from a religious extremist?
          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Charles View Post
            Well, just remember that if you want to hold this, then exactly the same goes for everything you say yourself. It is all just seer’s personal opinion. Then, how can you even talk about God having a purpose or anything else for that matter?
            No Charles, that does not follow. You can know what God's purposes are if He tells you. Just as I can know your purpose or view if you tell me.


            The golden rule is just one out of many, many reason to oppose to holding slaves.
            You mean this golden rule: "He with the most gold rules?"


            The christian position on this?

            And your emotions or your intuition sees no problem with slavery? So, to sum up, what we basically get from you is that you base your view on emotions or your intuition in part, and apart from that you base it on a God whom you cannot prove the existence of, and this entire foundation on which you accept slavery?

            Let me ask you a few questions:

            Is slavery only wrong if it follow from the Bible that it is wrong?

            Is slavery good or ok if the Bible contains guidelines on how to keep slaves?

            Do you feel no need at all to consider guidelines found in the Bible or do you just follow without any reflection?

            It seems you find all values to be subjective if they are not in the Bible. Do you basically hold that if it was not for your faith, you would be a nihilist?

            Where do you basically differ from a religious extremist?
            Nope not until you answer this: Then tell me why slavery is objectively or universally wrong. Or admit that it isn't.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              No Charles, that does not follow. You can know what God's purposes are if He tells you. Just as I can know your purpose or view if you tell me.




              You mean this golden rule: "He with the most gold rules?"




              Nope not until you answer this: Then tell me why slavery is objectively or universally wrong. Or admit that it isn't.
              I already have. You misinterpreted on purpose. Assumingly because you cannot answer the questions or are afraid to do so.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                I already have. You misinterpreted on purpose. Assumingly because you cannot answer the questions or are afraid to do so.
                Charles where have you demonstrated that slavery is universally or objectively wrong? By referencing the golden rule? But that is neither universal nor objective (apart from theism). We need to set the ground rules so we are on the same page. Then I will be happy to answer you.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Charles where have you demonstrated that slavery is universally or objectively wrong? By referencing the golden rule? But that is neither universal nor objective (apart from theism). We need to set the ground rules so we are on the same page. Then I will be happy to answer you.
                  How is it not universal? You basically never answer questions regarding your own position. It is way too obvious, seer. Answer the questions if you have anything of value. Or else we can make our own conclusions. We have seen enough in order to do so.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    How is it not universal? You basically never answer questions regarding your own position. It is way too obvious, seer. Answer the questions if you have anything of value. Or else we can make our own conclusions. We have seen enough in order to do so.
                    Charles if you think the GR is universal then it is on you to show why. Why it is more than a personal or cultural idea of how we should live? In other words, if another person or culture disagrees with you why is your view more correct or valid - because you hold it? I'm not sure what you even mean about it being universal. And like I said I will be happy you answer your list of questions after we clear this up.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Charles if you think the GR is universal then it is on you to show why. Why it is more than a personal or cultural idea of how we should live? In other words, if another person or culture disagrees with you why is your view more correct or valid - because you hold it? I'm not sure what you even mean about it being universal. And like I said I will be happy you answer your list of questions after we clear this up.
                      That is because you have decided to keep asking no matter what, so we will never get to that point. The last couple of days you have repeatedly ask questions already answered and made false statements about what you or I have said or not said.

                      There is no way you need my answer in order to tell what you think. I have written far more and answered far more than you have. Even about the golden rule and how it relates to the categorical imperative and why these are hard to see as anything but necessary among reflecting human beings: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post450176

                      Where did you give an equally detailed description of your view? So, let us here your answers if you have any. If not, I will conclude the rather obvius, that you have nothing compelling enough to share it.
                      Last edited by Charles; 06-27-2017, 12:20 PM.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        No Charles, that does not follow. You can know what God's purposes are if He tells you.
                        How do you know it is God? Many muslims would say exactly the same. So what we are witnessing seems to be your personal subjective idea about what God tells you. Or can you prove it to be objective? I will look forward to seeing how.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          How do you know it is God? Many muslims would say exactly the same. So what we are witnessing seems to be your personal subjective idea about what God tells you. Or can you prove it to be objective? I will look forward to seeing how.
                          Right, and every man has to decide for Himself - Follow no God, follow Islam, or any other god - I choose to follow the teachings and person of Christ, like I said Charles He resonates with me, and confirmed His teaching and Sonship with His Resurrection from the dead.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Right, and every man has to decide for Himself - Follow no God, follow Islam, or any other god - I choose to follow the teachings and person of Christ, like I said Charles He resonates with me, and confirmed His teaching and Sonship with His Resurrection from the dead.
                            Confirmed how? Can you prove the ressurection or is it a matter of faith?
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              That is because you have decided to keep asking no matter what, so we will never get to that point. The last couple of days you have repeatedly ask questions already answered and made false statements about what you or I have said or not said.

                              There is no way you need my answer in order to tell what you think. I have written far more and answered far more than you have. Even about the golden rule and how it relates to the categorical imperative and why these are hard to see as anything but necessary among reflecting human beings:
                              There you go again, "hard to see" "reflecting human beings" - these are personal opinions Charles, nothing more. They are not deductive reasons, they do not reach universality. And it is not universal, that is why you never answered the question about aliens harvesting us for food - why that would be a moral wrong. Possibly you could make the case that the GR is relative to humankind, but that is not universality.

                              Where did you give an equally detailed description of your view? So, let us here your answers if you have any. If not, I will conclude the rather obvius, that you have nothing compelling enough to share it.
                              But why would what you find compelling or not compelling even be a consideration? I already told you why I believe that God would be the best foundation for ethics.

                              1. It would mean that concepts like justice or moral law are universal.

                              2. They would be authoritative, having a universal rule and judge.

                              3. Meaning that we live in a just and moral universe rather than your unjust and amoral universe.

                              5. Our best moral instincts are tied to something eternal, certain and immutable.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                Confirmed how? Can you prove the ressurection or is it a matter of faith?
                                Read your New Testament, and the historical accounts. BTW - prove that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality - or do you take it by faith.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                160 responses
                                505 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X