Explaining Pope Benedict XVI on the Protestant Communities

[spauline]

Explaining Pope Benedict XVI on the Protestant Communities

In saying that Protestant communities are not true churches recently, only ecclesial communities, because they have no valid holy orders, the Pope is only communicating the OBJECTIVE deficiencies of the Protestant movement, not condemning the SUBJECTIVE individual Protestant conscience. Many of them are in good faith, striving to please God as best as they understand Him. Toward that end, Christ can save them either through Baptism which they usually have as a valid Sacrament (the baptism of heretics is valid, de fide, early Catholic Church dogma) or their desire for it if they do not use the valid formula.

In addition, two validly Baptized Christians of the separated Protestant communities truly have a Sacramental Marriage by intrinsic nature of what binds them in grace, even though most Protestants do not regard marriage as a Holy Sacrament the way that Catholics and Orthodox do. Christ doesn't let their error in this regard get in the way of His giving them grace. Christ gives grace, even when persons are not aware of it, or may even deny that it is grace. It is like the Jew who denies Christ's divinity but seeks to live the Torah. Christ is still the One who gives the Jew the grace to keep the Torah, though the Jew is not aware of it. :)

Similarly, the Protestant sects have Scripture, albeit misinterpreting it all the while, nevertheless, their sincere desire to understand it as best as they can can please God.

Hence, the "innocent heretic" can be saved by those elements of the Gospel he does have, elements that spill over from the fountain of truth and grace that the Catholic Church alone possesses in its fullness.

And yet, nevertheless, the Pope is calling for the Protestant communities to realize their lacking of the fullness of truth and grace, and that their chances of salvation are lessened by the very degree of their doctrinal errors and incomplete conception of Christ (because they lack Sacred Tradition), and by their lacking of five of the seven Sacraments, the five that require the priesthood, which they do not have by virtue of their objective separation of heresy: Confession, Eucharist, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and the Anointing toward Death.

Also, we note, the Pope in no way above refers to the Churches of the East, the Orthodox, who DO possess valid holy orders, and so have all seven sacraments in validity, and who possess the Sacred Tradition that gives them a much more accurate and correct understanding of the Scriptures than the heretics, who reject the Sacred Tradition, cutting themselves off from the true foundation for right interpretation of the Scriptures. For this reason, the Orthodox ARE valid Churches. What they lack is accepting Peter as the supreme servant of truth. Their separation is minor in this regard, being merely schism.

[repeater75]

This is sooooooo condescending.

My first blush reply is to say that, although many individual Roman Catholics are saved in spite of, but not because of Rome's Gospel, many are not and they blaspheme the finished work of Christ on the Cross by their belief that He must be called down from heaven on a weekly basis by an "alter Christus" (another Christ) or in the vernacular, a Priest, to inhabit bodily the Eucharist and the wine and therefore re-sacrificed in order that the church may dole out a modicum of new grace each week to the faithful who are not justified already by their faith in Christ's atoning work on the cross alone for their salvation.

The Roman treadmill of justification is an offense to Christ. The arrogance of this "Vicar of Christ" (Image of Christ!!!! BLASPHEMY!) to say that I may be saved because of my ignorance of Roman Catholic dogma is beyond belief.

I was raised Roman Catholic and attended RC schools for 12 years. I know the RC faith well. And the following claims it makes are historically and theologically FALSE:

1) That there was a monarchical episcopate created by Christ's words to Peter in Matthew 16:18 along with the idea of apostolic succession

2) That such an episcopate has existed continuously since the apostle Peter (there was not even a single Bishop of Rome until mid-2nd century and he was NOT recognized as the highest authority of the church for many years beyond that and this can be all be proven with writings of the ante-Nicene fathers).

3) That sacramentalism and the functional doctrine of "Sola Ecclesia" as the final authority in matters of faith and practice is taught by Christ or the Apostles.

4) That works are necessary for salvation instead of the fruit of the spirit, which reveal a saving faith exists within the one claiming to trust in Christ.

5) That the very nature of the atonement and justification are such that Christ's work on the cross was not sufficient to save God's elect and that they must in some way add to the perfect imputed righteousness of Jesus. (Hebrews 1:3)


"But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
(Hebrews 10:12-14 ESV)

And this is all to say nothing of the heresy of Mary as "mediatrix" or as is being pushed for in some RC quarters, "CO-REDEMPTRESS" with Christ!

That Pope would do well to re-consider. I spit on ecumenism in the name of people feeling good about themselves because they lack the courage of their convictions to call truth and falsehood what they are.

I do not hate Roman Catholics, most of my family are RC. However, I hate the Roman Catholic Church's official teachings as I hate all things that blaspheme the perfection of Jesus Christ and his ability to save all whom He wills by the power of the work of the Triune God in regenerating, effectually calling and bringing those who the Father gives Him repentance. (John 6:37-44)

Pardon my emotional tone. I have a lot and I mean a LOT of spiritual abuse in my past at the hand of Catholic nuns and I suffered greatly because of my separation from Christ because I knew him NOT as I believed I was hell bound in spite of him until I knew the Christ of scripture.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

What they [The Orthodox] lack is accepting Peter as the supreme servant of truth.

That acceptance is heresy, and violates the rulings of the Councils that forbid jurisdictional cross-overs for meddling Bishops...

"Supreme Servant" is an arrogant term...

Supreme sinner would be better...

Chief among the ranks of the worst sinners is perhaps best...

Self-proclaimed "supremacy" is not Christian...

Until you get over your "MY Pope is BIGGER than YOUR Pope" error,
You will not have Communion with the Orthodox Faith...
And this even if you manage it with, say, Constantinople...

The Protestants are in God's hands,
And will answer to Him alone...
They do not answer to Rome...
Nor to the Orthodox...

We simply pray for them,
as we do for you,
every day and night...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Pardon my emotional tone. I have a lot and I mean a LOT of spiritual abuse in my past at the hand of Catholic nuns and I suffered greatly because of my separation from Christ because I knew him NOT as I believed I was hell bound in spite of him until I knew the Christ of scripture.

These wounds are still raw and seeping, and you need healing...
Forgiveness needs daily and nightly seeking in prayer...
You have much to ask for of God...

God bless you, my Brother...
Peace be to you...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

This is sooooooo condescending.

Just read some more Spauline posts. They all have that same theme.

[Scrawly]

This is sooooooo condescending.

My first blush reply is to say that, although many individual Roman Catholics are saved in spite of, but not because of Rome's Gospel, many are not and they blaspheme the finished work of Christ on the Cross by their belief that He must be called down from heaven on a weekly basis by an "alter Christus" (another Christ) or in the vernacular, a Priest, to inhabit bodily the Eucharist and the wine and therefore re-sacrificed in order that the church may dole out a modicum of new grace each week to the faithful who are not justified already by their faith in Christ's atoning work on the cross alone for their salvation.

The Roman treadmill of justification is an offense to Christ. The arrogance of this "Vicar of Christ" (Image of Christ!!!! BLASPHEMY!) to say that I may be saved because of my ignorance of Roman Catholic dogma is beyond belief.

I was raised Roman Catholic and attended RC schools for 12 years. I know the RC faith well. And the following claims it makes are historically and theologically FALSE:

1) That there was a monarchical episcopate created by Christ's words to Peter in Matthew 16:18 along with the idea of apostolic succession

2) That such an episcopate has existed continuously since the apostle Peter (there was not even a single Bishop of Rome until mid-2nd century and he was NOT recognized as the highest authority of the church for many years beyond that and this can be all be proven with writings of the ante-Nicene fathers).

3) That sacramentalism and the functional doctrine of "Sola Ecclesia" as the final authority in matters of faith and practice is taught by Christ or the Apostles.

4) That works are necessary for salvation instead of the fruit of the spirit, which reveal a saving faith exists within the one claiming to trust in Christ.

5) That the very nature of the atonement and justification are such that Christ's work on the cross was not sufficient to save God's elect and that they must in some way add to the perfect imputed righteousness of Jesus. (Hebrews 1:3)


"But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
(Hebrews 10:12-14 ESV)

And this is all to say nothing of the heresy of Mary as "mediatrix" or as is being pushed for in some RC quarters, "CO-REDEMPTRESS" with Christ!

That Pope would do well to re-consider. I spit on ecumenism in the name of people feeling good about themselves because they lack the courage of their convictions to call truth and falsehood what they are.

I do not hate Roman Catholics, most of my family are RC. However, I hate the Roman Catholic Church's official teachings as I hate all things that blaspheme the perfection of Jesus Christ and his ability to save all whom He wills by the power of the work of the Triune God in regenerating, effectually calling and bringing those who the Father gives Him repentance. (John 6:37-44)

Pardon my emotional tone. I have a lot and I mean a LOT of spiritual abuse in my past at the hand of Catholic nuns and I suffered greatly because of my separation from Christ because I knew him NOT as I believed I was hell bound in spite of him until I knew the Christ of scripture.

Great testimony.

"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." [Rom. 4:7-8]

[Rushing Jaws]

"...their belief that He must be called down from heaven on a weekly basis by an "alter Christus" (another Christ) or in the vernacular, a Priest, to inhabit bodily the Eucharist and the wine and therefore re-sacrificed in order that the church may dole out a modicum of new grace..."

## This may be, in part or in whole, what some Catholics believe, but it is a caricature of what the CC teaches. It's about as accurate theologically as atheist gibes that Christians believe in a "Sky-fairy" :(

There are several distortions in that quotation - the problem is, where to begin. (For the record, I travelled in the opposite direction). There is *plenty* wrong in the CC, but that is a poor excuse for caricaturing its doctrine.

"I do not hate Roman Catholics, most of my family are RC"

## Then please don't write hateful things about Catholic teaching - especially if you were one.

[repeater75]

These wounds are still raw and seeping, and you need healing...
Forgiveness needs daily and nightly seeking in prayer...
You have much to ask for of God...

God bless you, my Brother...
Peace be to you...

Arsenios

Thanks for your kind words. My sinful pride has kept me from admitting to my hurts in the past and I think that has caused the desired healing to be put on hold as long as I have pretended they didn't happen.

I do believe some time in retreat and prayer is needed.

[Catholicity]

My first blush reply is to say that, although many individual Roman Catholics are saved in spite of, but not because of Rome's Gospel, many are not and they blaspheme the finished work of Christ on the Cross by their belief that He must be called down from heaven on a weekly basis by an "alter Christus" (another Christ) or in the vernacular, a Priest, to inhabit bodily the Eucharist and the wine and therefore re-sacrificed in order that the church may dole out a modicum of new grace each week to the faithful who are not justified already by their faith in Christ's atoning work on the cross alone for their salvation.

No. You have actually misunderstood. We do not redo the sacrifice on the cross everday/everyweek at mass rather we believe in the very real glorified flesh and blood presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine. Nor is the Priest another Christ, he is merely an intercessor. What you think is wrong and it is false.
We are redeemed in the waters of baptism, and this is made known to all and justified in our faith which is carried out in our work. This includes communion which yes is salvific as Jesus himself said and you ignore the words of Christ by calling it blasphemy "Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. John 6: 53-55
And if you recognize this, whether you believe communion is a symbol or the real presence, the precursing words to the institution of the last supper, have an implication of something to be carried out if you believe in Jesus. Next at the institution of the Last Supper Jesus says "Do this in rememberence of me." Luke 22:19 and the Words of St. Paul "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes." 1 Corinthians 11: 26. We are not re sacrificing Jesus, merely proclaiming This was the sacrifice! until he comes and doing as he commanded.

blaspheme the perfection of Jesus Christ and his ability to save all whom He wills by the power of the work of the Triune God in regenerating, effectually calling and bringing those who the Father gives Him repentance. (John 6:37-44)

We do not Blaspheme Jesus, we know Him as the way to heaven. I am sorry for the abuse you suffered, but abuse does not excuse hate nor proclamation of false doctrine against a Church's actual beliefs. You need healing of your wounds before you can accurately speak about the Church. Out of Hate comes Bitterness, out of Bitterness comes resentment Out of Resentment comes the ability to speak falsely against those who hurt you.

[repeater75]

## This may be, in part or in whole, what some Catholics believe, but it is a caricature of what the CC teaches. It's about as accurate theologically as atheist gibes that Christians believe in a "Sky-fairy" :(

There are several distortions in that quotation - the problem is, where to begin. (For the record, I travelled in the opposite direction). There is *plenty* wrong in the CC, but that is a poor excuse for caricaturing its doctrine.

## please don't write hateful things about Catholic teaching - especially if you were one.

If you take official RC dogma to its logical conclusion, you arrive at exactly what I described. The idea that the Roman mass must be celebrated as a propitiatory sacrifice for sins is in clear contradiction to the Gospel delivered by Christ and the Apostles as evidenced in Holy Scripture. No serious exegete would arrive at RC doctrine from scripture. They would arrive at Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the Glory of God alone. Any other gospel is no gospel at all. (Galatians 1:6)

If you are offended by truth, repent. If I can be shown by right use of scripture to be in need of repentance, then I will do it.

"For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10 ESV)

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but the adult CCD classes they teach you folks that swim the Tiber do not reflect accurately the actual church dogma on the books but the RC church has made it so difficult to determine what present doctrine is, most RC converts just accept what they hear in CCD and that is probably for the better because it is less slightly less perverse than the actual dogma. There is plenty of stuff from Trent and Vatican 1 that would probably make your toes curl that is STILL binding on the church and all who claim the name of Christ, if you believe in the Papal authority as supreme over the word of God.

Deny it all you want, the RC church is based firmly in the practice of Sola Ecclesia as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice and THAT is the cancer that has rotted her from the inside out. Men's corrupt hearts are no place to start seeking truth when you have the Word of God Himself as witness for all that is necessary for living the Christian life and the practice of the faith.

Does that mean I reject tradition and teaching of men? Hardly, but I surely test every word against the scripture before I believe it, as the apostle Paul was right to compliment the Bereans for doing.

I'm altogether too angry about this. I need to examine myself about that.

[repeater75]

Why I am not a Roman Catholic by Michael Greiner, parts 1 2 3 and 4

I think this is a perhaps less inflammatory analysis than my own.

[Catholicity]

I'm not sure if you are aware of this but the adult CCD classes they teach you folks that swim the Tiber do not reflect accurately the actual church dogma on the books but the RC church has made it so difficult to determine what present doctrine is, most RC converts just accept what they hear in CCD and that is probably for the better because it is less slightly less perverse than the actual dogma.

What adult RCIA were you in?!?!?!! I don't know about yours, but I have never heard of the so called swim the Tiber, but I have prior to my conversion in to the Catholic Church read plenty of Jack Chick and other hate speech against the RCC Church. In MY RCIA class we Read the Catechism from front to back, The Early Church Fathers, Pieces of Lumen Gentium, Apologetics by Peter Kreeft, Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Cardinal Newman, St Thomas Aquinas, and more. And if you were paying attention as I and the three Divinity students from Duke University were, The Scripture is the Final Authority however the Pope has the ability to interpret that, but he cannot speak ex cathedra without council approval. You are not paying attention, you are hearing from external sources not from the Church herself.

[One Bad Pig]

If you take official RC dogma to its logical conclusion, you arrive at exactly what I described.

Doubtful, though I also have some issues with RC dogma. Then again, if you take TULIP to its logical conclusion, you should quit arguing because nothing you type can alter anyone's beliefs an iota. It's the Greek idea of fate with a different determinant.

The idea that the Roman mass must be celebrated as a propitiatory sacrifice for sins is in clear contradiction to the Gospel delivered by Christ and the Apostles as evidenced in Holy Scripture.

As far as I know, that's also not a Roman Catholic understanding of the mass.

No serious exegete would arrive at RC doctrine from scripture.

Are you claiming that Augustine and Thomas Aquinas were not serious exegetes?

They would arrive at Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the Glory of God alone. Any other gospel is no gospel at all. (Galatians 1:6)

Actually, the could arrive at any number of differing positions; witness the proliferation of Protestant denominations over the last 500 years. Scripture was not assembled in a vacuum; nor should it be interpreted in one.

If you are offended by truth, repent. If I can be shown by right use of scripture to be in need of repentance, then I will do it.

"For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10 ESV)

Does that mean I reject tradition and teaching of men? Hardly, but I surely test every word against the scripture before I believe it, as the apostle Paul was right to compliment the Bereans for doing.

I'm altogether too angry about this. I need to examine myself about that.

Probably a good idea. Emotion seldom helps us see more clearly.

I'm not Roman Catholic, so I skipped a bunch of your post.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I do believe some time in retreat and prayer is needed.

Normally not much help there, nor in an extended vacation, nor in solitude in the woods... What is needed is repentance, and repentance is only attained in struggles and helps from God... Making yourself wrong in all counts is a start, because you do not desire to stop blaming Rome... In your mind, the dirty dogs have it coming, and more besides, and they were wrong and are still wrong and you have been wronged by them... And that is a whole pile of repentance right there all by itself...

You will not be healed until you can love your Catholic wrongers whole-heartedly and with joy and with tears... Joy that you love them and can see God in them, and tears for their souls' predicament - And that can only come in repentance from judging them and holding that judgement in the form of anger and ongoing outrage at them...

The HOW of doing this heart-felt and genuine forgiveness is one of the things discipled by the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church... NEVER judging another is almost kindergarden level discipleship... Because it destroys your own salvation... How to forgive is fairly simple in the practice of this Faith, but is very, very difficult outside of it...

So the way it looks from here, you have a QUEST to undertake, that you find the healing you need, and the Faith that will show you the way...

Godspeed to you...

There is no salvation apart from forgiveness...

Arsenios

[repeater75]

Normally not much help there, nor in an extended vacation, nor in solitude in the woods... What is needed is repentance, and repentance is only attained in struggles and helps from God... Making yourself wrong in all counts is a start, because you do not desire to stop blaming Rome... In your mind, the dirty dogs have it coming, and more besides, and they were wrong and are still wrong and you have been wronged by them... And that is a whole pile of repentance right there all by itself...

You will not be healed until you can love your Catholic wrongers whole-heartedly and with joy and with tears... Joy that you love them and can see God in them, and tears for their souls' predicament - And that can only come in repentance from judging them and holding that judgement in the form of anger and ongoing outrage at them...

The HOW of doing this heart-felt and genuine forgiveness is one of the things discipled by the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church... NEVER judging another is almost kindergarden level discipleship... Because it destroys your own salvation... How to forgive is fairly simple in the practice of this Faith, but is very, very difficult outside of it...

So the way it looks from here, you have a QUEST to undertake, that you find the healing you need, and the Faith that will show you the way...

Godspeed to you...

There is no salvation apart from forgiveness...

Arsenios

By retreat, I merely meant time spent in reflection, not a physical retreat. I can neither afford such things or make time for them as I provide for my family.

However, I can confess my sins and forgive as I have been forgiven. And I do.

That said, there are facts that are in dispute here.

Yep, somebody is wrong on the internet! :-) And I want to stand for truth.