Defing Total Depravity - Colossians 1

[Chappie]

If people are born in sin, why would you describe people in a way that goes beyond the plain meaning of God's word? In other words, how do you go from "born in sin" to "unable to believe God"

What's the difference between "born in sin" and born sinning?

[rhutchin]

And not one of them says that someone who is unregenerate is unable to have faith or are unable to believe God.

Romans 10 tells us that faith comes from hearing the word of God.

In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul says, "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified [the essence of the word of God], unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

So, how does a person go from the condition whereby the word of God is a stumblingblock or foolishness (the unsaved condition) to the point where that same word becomes the power of God and the wisdom of God? Something has had to change. Whatever that change is can be called regeneration.

Hebrews tells us, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." What is that which is hoped for but the things said by the word of God but for the unbelievers, that word is a stumblingblock or foolishness. Something must change so that those who saw it as foolishness could now see it as hope with its underlying faith. That which must change in the unbeliever to enable this is regeneration.

Are there verses which describe the unbeliever as able to exercise faith apart from a change from that which the Bible describes him to be?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

What's the difference between "born in sin" and born sinning?

The first is what sins your Mother did up to your birth... Universally true except for the Blessed Virgin...

The second would be what you are doing as you are being born... I have never seen a child born sinning...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So, how does a person go from the condition whereby the word of God is a stumblingblock or foolishness (the unsaved condition) to the point where that same word becomes the power of God and the wisdom of God? Something has had to change. Whatever that change is can be called regeneration.

He is known, selected, called, justified, and glorified by God...

IF he is willing to first deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Christ...

THAT is how Christ Crucified is preached - in self-denial...

It is preached in practice, having heard what the practice is...

For the Gospel is: Repent and be baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

To repent is to practice self-denial...

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

So, how does a person go from the condition whereby the word of God is a stumblingblock or foolishness (the unsaved condition) to the point where that same word becomes the power of God and the wisdom of God? Something has had to change. Whatever that change is can be called regeneration.

He is known, selected, called, justified, and glorified by God...

IF he is willing to first deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Christ...

THAT is how Christ Crucified is preached - in self-denial...

It is preached in practice, having heard what the practice is...

For the Gospel is: Repent and be baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

To repent is to practice self-denial...

Yep. Regeneration first and then the person can do the things you identify. But not without God enabling him to do so. The unbeliever would not, could not, do these things. I agree.

[Phat8594]

Regeneration first and then the person can do the things you identify. But not without God enabling him to do so.

Yet nowhere does the Bible say this....AT ALL. Rather its a byproduct of a man made theology, and is not rooted within scripture.

And this is where we get into problems, making doctrine that is nowhere espoused in the Bible. However, I am all ears if you can show anywhere in scripture that regeneration comes before faith.

[Phat8594]

Romans 10 tells us that faith comes from hearing the word of God. In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul says, "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified [the essence of the word of God], unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

And none of these verses say anything about someone who is not regenerate not being able to comply with God's commands.

So, how does a person go from the condition whereby the word of God is a stumblingblock or foolishness (the unsaved condition) to the point where that same word becomes the power of God and the wisdom of God? Something has had to change. Whatever that change is can be called regeneration

Well, not unless you think that regeneration can refer to an external factor, and not an inner rebirth...

In fact, lets see what Jesus says:

21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

As we can see Jesus points to an external circumstance (mighty works performed) as something that would have changed the minds of those in Tyre and Sidon.

However, if we were to hold that regneration is prior to and necessary for such an act (and as such is the determining factor) we would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is lying here. But I am sure that you will take Jesus' word about it, before Calvins.

Are there verses which describe the unbeliever as able to exercise faith apart from a change from that which the Bible describes him to be?

Yep...just showed you one of them.

[rhutchin]

Yep. Regeneration first and then the person can do the things you identify. But not without God enabling him to do so. The unbeliever would not, could not, do these things. I agree.

Yet nowhere does the Bible say this....AT ALL.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

and

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The quickening (or regeneration) is that action by God that transforms a person from being "dead in sin" to "alive in Christ." God is always portrayed as doing the work necessary to bring a person to Christ - to save them. The person being saved is always described as reacting to God's grace in ways that those dead in sin would never do.

[Phat8594]

What's the difference between "born in sin" and born sinning?

The problem is when someone takes "born in sin" and equates it with "unable to respond to God". There is not one place in the Bible that even warrants such a misleading equivocation of terms. Rather, one can be born in sin, and born with a sinful nature, and born with an inclination to sin...yet still respond to God.

I think to deny such a truth, is to question God's sincerity in His offer of the Gospel to mankind.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

This passage simply indicates the difference between a person before and after baptism, for we are baptized INTO Christ...

Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

and

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

"Now" means AFTER their ENTRY INTO Christ...

Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The quickening (or regeneration) is that action by God that transforms a person from being "dead in sin" to "alive in Christ."

Yes, this is called Baptism: For we are baptized INTO CHRIST, as Scripture plainly records...

God is always portrayed as doing the work necessary to bring a person to Christ - to save them.

Yes, this work is that of the Holy Spirit in Baptism INTO CHRIST - Voluntary on man's part...
God doing the work in the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, for:

Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The person being saved is always described as reacting to God's grace in ways that those dead in sin would never do.

There have been many who have gotten to the bottom of the barrel - The Prodigal Son's parable is the prime explicator - Where he "comes to himself", remember? And he turns from his sins, and begins the journey back TOWARDS the Father, remember... And the Father SEES him from afar, and RUNS to meet him... This is the point where you begin, you see, with your false theory, for you see God coming to man and welcoming him Home, and giving him a FEAST, and on and on, and surely this is ALL God's doing, when you utterly overlook the fact that Scripture tells us that the Prodigal "came to himself" and THEN BEGAN the return to the Father... It was the FAILURE of prodigality that brought him to his return, to REPENTANCE from his prodigal ways...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Still nothing about regeneration preceding faith here.

The quickening (or regeneration) is that action by God that transforms a person from being "dead in sin" to "alive in Christ." God is always portrayed as doing the work necessary to bring a person to Christ - to save them. The person being saved is always described as reacting to God's grace in ways that those dead in sin would never do.

And this has been the pattern: You quote 1 or 2 verses, and expound upon them by defining the words as they suit your theology, rather than dealing with local context and authors intent. But when one examines the context, we see that the there really is nothing here about regeneration preceding faith.

On the other hand, I quoted Jesus saying something that directly contradicts the Calvinist understanding of total depravity...unless you can show me how it doesn't.


And PS, I am still all ears to where in the Bible we see regeneration preceding faith.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

REGENERATION:

Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He has saved us,
by the bath of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

paliggenesia noun, feminine

new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

the renovation of the earth after the deluge

the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
other uses

of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

of the recovery of knowledge by recollection

So HERE is my QUESTION for you, Hutch...

According to the quote from Titus above,
1 - By what means are we NOT saved?
2 - By what means are we saved?
3 - What are the two components of this Mercy?
4 - By what MEANS is the regeneration of the person attained?
5 - What is needed besides regeneration for salvation?
6 - How is this second need attained?

Her are the answers from Titus 3:5
1 - Our works of righteousness...
2 - His Mercy...
3 - Regeneration and renewal...
4 - Baptism [the BATH of regeneration]...
5 - The renewal of the Holy Spirit...
6 - Chrismation [annointing with Holy Chrism] following Baptism...

The Gospel message is this: REPENT and THEN be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...
Renewal follows Baptism...
Regeneration is BY Baptism...
BOTH follow repentance...
Regeneration here clearly does NOT precede repentance...

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

REGENERATION:

Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He has saved us,
by the bath of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

paliggenesia noun, feminine

new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

the renovation of the earth after the deluge

the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
other uses

of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

of the recovery of knowledge by recollection

So HERE is my QUESTION for you, Hutch...

According to the quote from Titus above,
1 - By what means are we NOT saved?
2 - By what means are we saved?
3 - What are the two components of this Mercy?
4 - By what MEANS is the regeneration of the person attained?
5 - What is needed besides regeneration for salvation?
6 - How is this second need attained?

Her are the answers from Titus 3:5
1 - Our works of righteousness...
2 - His Mercy...
3 - Regeneration and renewal...
4 - Baptism [the BATH of regeneration]...
5 - The renewal of the Holy Spirit...
6 - Chrismation [annointing with Holy Chrism] following Baptism...

Less you be confused:

Her are the answers from Titus 3:5
1 - Our works of righteousness... That is any work that a man might do to gain salvation.
2 - His Mercy... As Paul said in Ephesians, “By grace are you saved.” God’s mercy is His grace and God’s grace is His mercy.
3 - Regeneration and renewal... These are the things that God does.
5 - The renewal of the Holy Spirit... Something only God could do.

Here is where you get confused.
4 - Baptism [the BATH of regeneration]... . Nope. God regenerates or quickens the dead (as Ephesians 2).

I think you exercised your imagination to get this from the verse in Titus.
6 - Chrismation [annointing with Holy Chrism] following Baptism…

The Gospel message is this: REPENT and THEN be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND...

You are doing good so far.

Renewal follows Baptism...
Regeneration is BY Baptism...
BOTH follow repentance...
Regeneration here clearly does NOT precede repentance...

The verse from Titus does not say this. To avoid confusion, Paul writes immediately, "Which [God] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior." Yet, you still managed to get confused.

[rhutchin]

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Still nothing about regeneration preceding faith here.

Don’t see how you missed it. We start with those dead in sin (without faith) and God quickens (regenerates) them. Did faith cause God to quicken the dead in sin person? Don’t see how. The only place for faith to express itself is after the quickening, that is, after regeneration.

Can you make an argument for faith causing God to quicken those dead in sins? If not, then your further comments have no merit.

[rhutchin]

The problem is when someone takes "born in sin" and equates it with "unable to respond to God". There is not one place in the Bible that even warrants such a misleading equivocation of terms. Rather, one can be born in sin, and born with a sinful nature, and born with an inclination to sin...yet still respond to God.

I think to deny such a truth, is to question God's sincerity in His offer of the Gospel to mankind.

Well, Paul does describe the unbelievers as "dead" in sin. Certainly the word, dead, must carry some significance.

Paul expands this, and says, "you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath.”

Later Paul adds, of those dead in sins, “having no hope, and without God in the world.”

In Titus , Paul writes, “we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.”

In Corinthians, Paul says, “we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.”

Pretty strong language and pretty straightforward.

So, let’s see some verses where the Scriptures say that those described by Paul who consider the gospel foolishness and who revel in the lusts of the flesh and are, by nature, children of wrath, will respond to the gospel in some positive way. Put some meat to the bones of your opinions.