What is the Relationship Between God and His People?

[Catholicity]

So in light of some argumentative and lively discussions I've seen lately, I thought I'd create an open debate here in General Theistics. Just what is The Relationship Between God and His Chosen People? All Theists Please weigh in.

[Thersites]

I suppose I should at least subscribe...

[Andius]

Back from my camping trip, il start away.

When comprehending Scripture, I apply the overarching principle that the Bible as a whole cannot be comprehended correctly without having prior knowledge of the context. By definition, the Bible is a collection of "high-context" writ, that means that it's authors wrote in terms that presumed that the reader was already familiarized with loads of concepts pertaining to the ancient world, especially 4 key concepts; Shame and Honor, Purity, Kinship, and Patronage. The 4 key concepts were the social bread and butter of all ancients, the equivalent of today's western key concepts; human rights, liberty, and welfare. Bereft of said knowledge, will yield an incomplete, and at worst, poor understanding of Scripture.

I stand by that the relationship between human persons and our Lord, is defined by a Patron-Client Relationship, and the entirety of the Bible is peppered with terms that effectively assign God in the role of a Patron. The defining characteristics of a Patron-Client Relationship are these; I cite the work of Jerome H. Neyrey http://www.nd.edu/~jneyrey1/God-benefactor.htm

1. Asymmetrical relationship, i.e. between parties of different status, thus representing a vertical dimension of superior and inferior relationships.

2. Simultaneous exchange of different types of resources, above all instrumental, economic and political ones by the benefactor, in response to which the client promises reciprocity, solidarity and loyalty.

3. Interpersonal obligation is prevalent, couched in terms of personal loyalty or attachment between patrons and clients.

4. Favoritism is frequently present.

5. Reciprocity: as basic goods and services are exchanged, clear notions of reciprocity arise; the client who incurs a debt has obligations to the patron.

6. “Kinship glaze” over the relationship reduces the crassness of the exchange; the patron is “father” to the client.

7. Honor, both given and received, is a significant feature of these relationships.

Said model still gave space to highly diverse expressions of this kind of expression (Example; the forms and means of Reciprocity were extremely and highly diverse in the Roman world alone). Such diversity became even more radically different when comparing Patron mortals and Patron gods (the key distinction being that the gods have no need for anything a mortal can offer, a point that was fiercely debated amongst Roman thinkers of the time). And as the researchers of the Context Group adequately put (can't recall if it was DeSilva or Pilch particularly), Patrons were distant and remote from their clients. There was a no "personal relationship" or "emotional relationship" as we westerners hold today (especially the laughable "personal relationship with Jesus" gig, a major anachronism, and borderline dishonoring of God).

As I said, there are verses that give fitting like a glove that this is the correct form of relationship, for starters, I quote these verses that show that by these titles that God possessed, he relates to us a patron. And again, I cite Nerey's work above)

God as Benefactor and Patron. Like many Greco-Roman deities, the God of Jesus Christ is “many named.” Not all names of God reflect a relationship of patron to clients, but the following six names do. All of these names directly communicate that God shows various types of favor, blessing, benefaction and patronage to mortals.

Creator: Acts 17:24; Rom 1:19-22; 1 Cor 8:6

Father: Matt 6:9-12; Eph 1:3; 3:14-16; Gal 4:6

King: 1 Tim 1:17; Rev 15:3; 19:16

Lord: Luke 1:32, 68; Acts 3:22; 17:14; Rev 4:8, 11

Master: Luke 2:29; Acts 4:24

Savior: Luke 1:47; 1 Tim 1:3; 2:10; 3:4; Jude 24

Not to mention that said roles also fulfill the criteria of the abstracts Neyrey and his peers formulated in the form of reciprocity present in in Patron/Client relationship (Power, Inducement, Commitment, and Influence).


Because covenants/contracts by nature are NOT open to open interpretations (and last I checked, God, as the emitter of said covenant, has NOT modified the terms of the Covenant for a good 2 milleniums), there is no good reason to believe why said model is "obsolete" or "superseded", or that by virtue of our introspective natures as westerners (and the radical new social phenomena it normalized by the 19th Century), we have gained and unlocked some hidden understanding about God that was unknown to the ancients.

I also stand by this evidence, that by sustaining such a relationship with God in p/c terms, it is far more conducive to a more sane, logical, and healthy relationship with our God. Any relationship outside of said terms is to engage in a delusional fantasy, recreating God in one's own image, instead of letting God be (and borderline idolatry, practically worshipping a false god out of one's own delusion). As a faithful servant of Christ, I prefer to let my Lord define the terms, NOT the other way around (and said terms were layed on the line during the ministry of Jesus, that suffices for me).

On a personal note, I hail from a society where the social values of honor and patronage still hold a bit of sway in the social dynamics in here (not as much as the Middle East though, not by mile). Myself and my countrymen, descendant of Spaniards, and heirs of many of their customs, also maintained two social dynamics well into colonial times, and even after post-independance eras, the social values of Honor and Patronage. You must understand that where French, English, Dutch, and Germans, were quick to shed away the institutions of ancient and medieval patronage (along with their colonies here in the Americas), Spaniards didn't, a shed away that did not begin until after the turn of the 20th Century, Latinamerica following suite. I grew up learning and embracing said values, although if anything, we are still FAR more westerners than easterners in terms of our individualism. But to have grown up with honor, and seeing how the Bible DOES contain passages pertaining to honor, I was more than delighted to at last embrace familiarity found within scripture (and for a brief moment, I got REALLY pissed at some idiocies many American Protestant Missionaries spread during the 1940's when they first arrived).

[shanewatts95]

In my thinking a big relation between a human and GOD.This relation can't see to anyone.its a hidden relation.

[Andius]

In my thinking a big relation between a human and GOD.This relation can't see to anyone.its a hidden relation.

Can you elaborate or reword a bit on that? Not sure I am understanding this, tis not clear.

btw, welcome to Tweb. :)

[Nemo]

Gods relationship with his people.
God has created 2 "intelegent" species...Humankind and Angelic kind.
His relation ship with angelic kind has been ...difficult, resulting in 2 opposing positions . Gods side and the Devils side. This "difference" eventualy erupted into all out war in hevan. God won and the Devil and his kind were thrown out "down the great dragon was hurled". Down ...but not out.....the War may be over , but the story is not finished.
His relationship with humankind has been....difficult, resulting in multiple opposing positions. Gods side and everybody elses, This we are told will inevitably end up with a war on Earth..Armagedon.
Therfore i think the best way to describe gods relationship with all of his creations is "difficult"

[Jedidiah]

Gods relationship with his people.
God has created 2 "intelegent" species...Humankind and Angelic kind.
His relation ship with angelic kind has been ...difficult, resulting in 2 opposing positions . Gods side and the Devils side. This "difference" eventualy erupted into all out war in hevan. God won and the Devil and his kind were thrown out "down the great dragon was hurled". Down ...but not out.....the War may be over , but the story is not finished.
His relationship with humankind has been....difficult, resulting in multiple opposing positions. Gods side and everybody elses, This we are told will inevitably end up with a war on Earth..Armagedon.
Therfore i think the best way to describe gods relationship with all of his creations is "difficult"

God has it all under control.

[Nemo]

Jedidiah,
Thanks , you raise such an interesting point for me anyhow. That does God require you to join or be a part of a "Main line organisation"...a group of like minded thinkers . Is it a demand from God?. Or is the bibles main point "to beieve in God"..is the rest mans interpretation?

[Cow Poke]

Jedidiah,
Thanks , you raise such an interesting point for me anyhow. That does God require you to join or be a part of a "Main line organisation"...a group of like minded thinkers . Is it a demand from God?. Or is the bibles main point "to beieve in God"..is the rest mans interpretation?

God gave us the Bible.
In the Bible, we find, in the New Testament, the Church of God.
(Not the denomination, but the body of believers we see growing in the book of Acts)

As we accept God's Son, Jesus, we want to be more like Him, and be around others who are learning about Him.
Our relationship with God involves our relationships with others of His children.
That's why we are not to forsake the assembling with believers.

Can you be a Christian and not go to Church? Sure. But you can also be married and not live with your wife. I love my wife and want to be around her. I love God and His people, and want to be around them.

I serve God NOT to earn a place in Heaven, but because I am grateful for His love and care.

[Nemo]

I love your reply cow poke... but that begs the question "what one"????

[Cow Poke]

I love your reply cow poke... but that begs the question "what one"????

What one what?

[Nemo]

How would you find the correct church?...the correct path to follow. For me i think the bible is important. So i think that i should follow a group that believes the bible is the word of God. I base this on the fact that there is only one bible. it has survived through time . It must be in my mind important.But many religions pay lip service to the bible . And then change it to suit. I think this is wrong ( i no this can be controversial and it is not my intent to upset anyone , its just my personal choice)

[Cow Poke]

How would you find the correct church?...the correct path to follow. For me i think the bible is important. So i think that i should follow a group that believes the bible is the word of God. I base this on the fact that there is only one bible. it has survived through time . It must be in my mind important.But many religions pay lip service to the bible . And then change it to suit. I think this is wrong ( i no this can be controversial and it is not my intent to upset anyone , its just my personal choice)

I don't see anything wrong with what you said -- my friend, Paul Powell, says "The MAIN thing is that we always make the MAIN thing the MAIN thing".

What is the MAIN THING? Christ crucified, buried and risen again. And living for Him.

[Nemo]

I like that ... thanks