Was the Atonement completed before Christ's physical death?

[37818]

Article [link]

There is no issue against Christ having died for our sins. That is agreed upon.

Romans 5:8,

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

At issue is the explicit meaning of the following:

John 19:28-30,

Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

[seanD]

He was affirming the dispensation outlined in prophecy (i.e. Psalms 22)?

[Littlejoe]

I think you are picking at nits here....Christ utters this as He dies...He can't say it right after He dies...He knows He will have to wait until His resurrection...so, He wants to be clear what His death is accomplishing....

LJ

[37818]

I think you are picking at nits here....Christ utters this as He dies...He can't say it right after He dies...He knows He will have to wait until His resurrection...so, He wants to be clear what His death is accomplishing....

LJ

John 19:28,

. . . .Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished . . ..

It was complete before Jesus uttered the words, "It is finished."

[theblueprint_Ni]

If the atonement was accomplished prior to Christ's death, then it would not have been necessary for Him to die. He could have just as easily "come down from the cross" to the shock of his tormentors instead of giving up His spirit. No atonement, whether OT or NT, was accomplished outside physical death.

[Littlejoe]

John 19:28,

. . . .Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished . . ..

It was complete before Jesus uttered the words, "It is finished."

if all had already been accomplished...the way your reading it, then He didn't need to say anything else, but look! There's more to the verse you just quoted...:

John 19:28

that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst

Why does it go on to say that in order that Scripture might be fulfilled if ...ALL were already accomplished? Obviously, all hadn't been accomplished...without Him saying I thirst and receiving the sour wine and then dying....

LJ

[37818]

if all had already been accomplished...the way your reading it, then He didn't need to say anything else, but look! There's more to the verse you just quoted...:

John 19:28

that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst

Why does it go on to say that in order that Scripture might be fulfilled if ...ALL were already accomplished? Obviously, all hadn't been accomplished...without Him saying I thirst and receiving the sour wine and then dying....

LJ

If you had take the time to read the article that is explained. Jesus had finished the purpose of going to the cross, and now no longer being forsaken by the Father for sins. He ws done with that. Now He could adress His human need, which acording to prophecy was thirst. And then after shouting with a load vioce "It is finished," He could again address God the Father to take His physical life. (See Luke 23:46.).

[37818]

He was affirming the dispensation outlined in prophecy (i.e. Psalms 22)?

Yes.

[37818]

If the atonement was accomplished prior to Christ's death, then it would not have been necessary for Him to die. He could have just as easily "come down from the cross" to the shock of his tormentors instead of giving up His spirit. No atonement, whether OT or NT, was accomplished outside physical death.

Jesus did die for our sins on the cross (Romans 5:8.). His soul died on the cross, shedding His holy blood to pay for sins, before He physically died to show victory over death and to be resurrected to declare He was really the Son of God (Romans 1:4, Acts 13:33.)

Isaiah 53: 10, 12,

. . . make his soul an offering for sin, . . . he hath poured out his soul unto death; . . . .

Jesus was forsaken by the father on the cross per Psalm 22:1. In which time His soul was dead being forsaken. But after that was done, His soul would again be alive to have fellowship with the Father.

Luke 23:46,

. . . Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: . . .

[theblueprint_Ni]

Jesus did die for our sins on the cross (Romans 5:8.). His soul died on the cross, shedding His holy blood to pay for sins, before He physically died to show victory over death and to be resurrected to declare He was really the Son of God (Romans 1:4, Acts 13:33.)

Isaiah 53: 10, 12,

. . . make his soul an offering for sin, . . . he hath poured out his soul unto death; . . . .

Jesus was forsaken by the father on the cross per Psalm 22:1. In which time His soul was dead being forsaken. But after that was done, His soul would again be alive to have fellowship with the Father.

Luke 23:46,

. . . Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: . . .

Please elaborate further on your meaning and why, I assume, you juxtaposed my statement with your response and accompanying verses. I think I understand what you're saying but you'll have to be more precise so that I won't have to make assumptions.

[37818]

Please elaborate further on your meaning and why, I assume, you juxtaposed my statement with your response and accompanying verses. I think I understand what you're saying but you'll have to be more precise so that I won't have to make assumptions.

You made, what I understood by you, an assertion that if the atonement was completed before Christ's physical death, then He would not have needed to die. That [false] assertion is based on what scripture?

Jesus' word, translated "It is finished" refers to Him knowing "all things were now accomplished." (v.28) Before Jesus said, "I thirst."

[Littlejoe]

If you had take the time to read the article that is explained. Jesus had finished the purpose of going to the cross, and now no longer being forsaken by the Father for sins. He ws done with that. Now He could adress His human need, which acording to prophecy was thirst. And then after shouting with a load vioce "It is finished," He could again address God the Father to take His physical life. (See Luke 23:46.).

Yeah, in my experience, requiring folks to read a long article to participate in a thread usually limits participation...

That seems to go against Paul's teaching in Col 1:22-23 and also the author of Hebrews (9:15)

Hebrews 9:15

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

LJ

[josephus2950]

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[37818]

Yeah, in my experience, requiring folks to read a long article to participate in a thread usually limits participation...

The main reason for the link that it was included was to show this is not any teaching unique to myself. And I did answer the question as asked. Not assuming the link will be read. Now had one choose to read the one page article, then one would also had known the answers I gave here, in my own words.

That seems to go against Paul's teaching in Col 1:22-23 and also the author of Hebrews (9:15)

Hebrews 9:15

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

LJ

So you think. But Christ's death of His soul, is a death while in the flesh in His body, and is the death by which we have the blood atonement.

Colossians 2:22-23,

. . . In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . . .

Hebrews 9:15,

. . . And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

You see Christ's death for sin in His body is not being denied, rather it is being affirmed it was done and completed, paid in full, while Christ was conscious on the cross.

Back when I WAS an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I recall something that probably helps explain the "all things were now accomplished." Among Eastern Christians, there is a belief towards the idea that the WHOLE aspect of Christ's life, suffering, death and resurrection is what redeems humanity. In other words (if I have understood their position correctly so don't quote me...I'm not Orthodox anymore so it's been a while) from the Virgin Birth all the way unto His physical death and resurrection----all of this was His redeeming work, not just His death and resurrection.--JB, Hanford,CA (U;S;A;)

Well the text says "all things were now accomplished." And that "now" was before the words "I thirst." Before Christ's physical death, before His burial, before His resurrection, before His ascension. Need I say more?

[theblueprint_Ni]

You made, what I understood by you, an assertion that if the atonement was completed before Christ's physical death, then He would not have needed to die. That [false] assertion is based on what scripture?

Jesus' word, translated "It is finished" refers to Him knowing "all things were now accomplished." (v.28) Before Jesus said, "I thirst."

I understand that you're making an astute observation of this particular text and deducing a doctrine based on what you have perceived, but I think this may be a case of thinking too much and surmising beyond what was likely intended. Somebody already made a point about the practical barrier of death that would inhibit someone from making a verbal proclamation. I think Jesus was preempting that by stating it just prior to giving up His spirit. Concerning what exactly Christ meant by "it is finished" isn't altogether clear, but I don't think it really needs to be. It's enough to understand that whatever work Jesus came fulfill on earth has been accomplished. Technically speaking, He wasn't finished with everything. He still preached to the spirits in prison and had to physically rise from the dead and ascend into heaven.

In terms of the Levitical priesthood, the atonement was not completed until the animal was first killed, drained of blood, then sprinkled or poured into various places on the altar and in the sanctuary. See Leviticus 4 and 16. For example:

Lev. 16:15-16

...he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood...sprinkling it over the mercy seat...thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins.

We know that Jesus is our sacrificial lamb. Hebrews 10 uses the language and duties of the priesthood to explain the purpose and significance of His death. Christ's atonement parallels the sacrificial process already in place. In part, that's exactly what Jesus did by fulfilling the law (Matt. 5:17). The law, especially the sacrificial laws and regulations, were a "shadow" of what is to come. Hence, we know that death was a necessary part of the atonement process along with the shedding of blood and its application to the mercy seat.

I would go so far as to wager that the atonement wasn't completed until Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father. I think Jesus was stating that His work, or His labor, you might say, is done (toil, suffering, hardship, etc). It's the best explanation I have that aligns with what Scripture reveals to us about the atonement process. Whatever the case may be, if you argue that the atonement was accomplished prior to His death, I think the burden of proof lies more with you than it does with me simply because every picture we have of atonement sacrifice always requires that the object of sacrifice be put to death. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but that's my view as it stands now.