Christian vs. Mormon response to "Mocking"

[3abdulmesii7]

As a member of the Evil Apostate Catholic Church, I would like to voice my confusion over why a member of the Wonderful Restored LDS Church would bother caring whether or not I think that he or she is a Christian.

Of course I don't.

And of course I don't particularly care when a random Baptist doesn't think that I'm a Christian. In fact, I think that that's a good thing. People shouldn't change their beliefs if they want people to believe them when they say that they believe. That Baptist is clinging to what the Reformers knew was the only good reason to start a new religion--the former one was apostate.

To state that more clearly, Mormonism has no coherent right to exist if the other religions which claim the title of Christian are not apostate. So I must be an apostate. Why should you care what I think!?

[3abdulmesii7]

I haven't read this whole discussion, mind you.

[nrajeff]

I haven't read this whole discussion, mind you.

Then why should we care what you think about us?

[Bill the Cat]

But Jesus commands YOU to be peaceable.

Have I took up the sword against you? Have I killed any of your members? One can be peaceable and still engage in challenge/riposte

You keep redefining what Jesus did as what He wants YOU to do.

What do you think "follow me" means? Oh, right... Jesus is a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of messiah...

Jesus, in the OT, commanded genocides and holocausts. Do you plan to do the same?

If He asked you personally to kill someone else, would you obey? Or perhaps, there is that silly context thing again...

Or do you plan to do what He has commanded His disciples to do?

Yes. I plan on praying for the lost, discipling those I can, and fervently defending the faith.

"Put your disrespectful child to death" is biblical. You got that on your agenda of "to do" things this week?

So, are you trying to say that you have disobeyed the direct command of Jesus? Guess that "all you can do" is falling a bit short there, Jeff-fa-fa...

Now, for a serious answer to your childish accusation, death is a CURSE of the law, and Christ came to remove the curse of the Law. The law is still valid, as children are to obey their parents, but the curse of disobedience, death, has been removed by Christ. But you'd have to ,once again, understand the Jewish context of the Bible, which you obviously don't.

You were just born 1970 years too late, eh? Poor thing.

I'm sure you'd have said the same thing to Paul...

1 Corinthians 15:8
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
...and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

You feel all out of place in our 21st-century, American Christian society, with its notions of "treat others the way you would like to be treated--with respect and maturity and humility."

Yes. That individualism has led to all manner of stupidity in Western Christendom that Jesus and the Apostles would have looked at as completely foreign.

You wish you could be transported back to the good old days of 1st-century Palestine,

For one chance to see jesus face to face, you darned skippy! The fact that you snobbishly mock that time period and claim ours as superior is rather telling.

where you could be the Jewish priest or the Levite (i.e., the "correct" religion) and sneer as you walk past the robbery victim with his "enemy of the true God" religion. Yep, that good old-fashioned culture you long for.

Ah... the backhanded slap... So, when you shave in the morning, which of your two faces do you start with?

[Cow Poke]

As a member of the Evil Apostate Catholic Church, I would like to voice my confusion over why a member of the Wonderful Restored LDS Church would bother caring whether or not I think that he or she is a Christian.

Because the Reconstruction of Mormon Doctrine is trying to shape-shift Mormonism from anti-orthodox to mainline Christian.

[nrajeff]

Have I took up the sword against you?

The pen (or keyboard) can be taken up against a person, FYI.

One can be peaceable and still engage in challenge/riposte

---Then get back to peaceably engaging. Like you sometimes do but not lately.

What do you think "follow me" means?
Oh, right... Jesus is a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of messiah...

Gee, all this time I thought the accusation was that it was the Mormons who were presumptuous enough to believe they can and should take over for Jesus in His absence, but apparently "the anti-Mormons" was the right answer....

If He asked you personally to kill someone else, would you obey? Or perhaps, there is that silly context thing again...

So you're saying that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death" meant something OTHER than "You are to execute anyone who does any of those things" ?

Yes. I plan on praying for the lost, discipling those I can, and fervently defending the faith.

Where does "mocking the Mormons" fit into that noble-sounding credo?

So, are you trying to say that you have disobeyed the direct command of Jesus?

I am sure I have disobeyed several of His commands. I just don't pretend that while doing so, I am doing God service.

Now, for a serious answer to your childish accusation, death is a CURSE of the law, and Christ came to remove the curse of the Law

---It seemed like more than a curse. It seemed like part of the penal code back then.

The law is still valid, as children are to obey their parents, but the curse of disobedience, death, has been removed by Christ.

So you feel that the sins/crimes I cited no longer result in death of any kind, including spiritual death? Does the New Testament back you up?

But you'd have to ,once again, understand the Jewish context of the Bible, which you obviously don't.

--I guess my refusal to bow to your eisegesis of it, means, in your mind, that I don't understand it, right?

The fact that you snobbishly mock that time period and claim ours as superior is rather telling.

--Yeah--it tells you that I agree with Jesus' appraisal of that society: It was, back then, quite benighted and obtuse, especially as far as the things of God are concerned. The proud, haughty, snobby, judgmental, bossy Pharisees were clueless regarding lots of things.
Just like some TWEB posters who think we should bow down and worship them for their "wisdom" and "witty repartee."

Ah... the backhanded slap...

If it smacks some sense into you, I don't care whether it's a forehand or backhand.

[Bill the Cat]

The pen (or keyboard) can be taken up against a person, FYI.

Only like this...

---Then get back to peaceably engaging. Like you sometimes do but not lately.

When you agree that it is biblical to insult when necessary, then I will. Deal?

Gee, all this time I thought the accusation was that it was the Mormons who were presumptuous enough to believe they can and should take over for Jesus in His absence, but apparently "the anti-Mormons" was the right answer....

That's what you get for making assumptions...

So you're saying that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death" meant something OTHER than "You are to execute anyone who does any of those things" ?

Yes. Those are PUNISHMENTS under the Torah. The punitive curses of Torah have been removed by Christ. It's not that difficult. Those things are still a sin, but the punishment given to the High Priest to enact or delegate are no longer in force.

Where does "mocking the Mormons" fit into that noble-sounding credo?

part 3. Mormonism is at war with the truth of God and His Christ, as they have created their own gods and christ after joseph Smith's false doctrines. And we are to defend against such falsities, and shaming is an available tool.

I am sure I have disobeyed several of His commands. I just don't pretend that while doing so, I am doing God service.

Nor do I. I do as He did. His life is a model for me to live, and that includes shaming those who are wolves out to devour the innocent.

---It seemed like more than a curse. It seemed like part of the penal code back then.

And the punishment for each offense was considered a curse... and Jesus removed the curse.

So you feel that the sins/crimes I cited no longer result in death of any kind, including spiritual death?

No. A saved child that disobeys their parents does not suffer spiritual death. An adulterer does not suffer spiritual death.

Does the New Testament back you up?

Yes.

--I guess my refusal to bow to your eisegesis of it, means, in your mind, that I don't understand it, right?

It's not eisegesis, Jeff. it's study of the culture and context of Jesus' time. And yes, you are obviously ignorant of it.

--Yeah--it tells you that I agree with Jesus' appraisal of that society: It was, back then, quite benighted and obtuse, especially as far as the things of God are concerned. The proud, haughty, snobby, judgmental, bossy Pharisees were clueless regarding lots of things.

Ah... argumentum ad Pharisseum... when you can't rebut something, just claim the other person is doing what the Pharisees did. And for your information, Jesus' appraisal of the Pharisees had nothing to do with the language and cultural references He used. And you show yourself a bigot when you accuse as much.

Just like some TWEB posters who think we should bow down and worship them for their "wisdom" and "witty repartee."

No one is asking you to bow down to anyone except the real God, Jeff. The fact that you think this is personal is sad. Your doctrine is what I am after, and I will use whatever method the Bible uses to go after it. And if you get offended in the process, then that's on you. The true Gospel is supposed to be offensive, and that is the ultimate point I don't think you get.

If it smacks some sense into you, I don't care whether it's a forehand or backhand.

But there is no "sense" to smack me into, Jeff. you are arguing against the very methods used by almost every Biblical character against sworn enemies of the one true God. And, like you, they all claim that their god is bigger and better than ours.

[nrajeff]

When you agree that it is biblical to insult when necessary, then I will (get back to peaceably engaging). Deal?

---Question: Who gets to be the judge of whether a given poster's insult was "biblically necessary" ? You might as well be asking me to agree that it is biblical to try to sacrifice one's son, and to commit holocausts against women and children of entire cities, and to be a polygamist when necessary. Maybe that's the rationalization Ed Decker was using to justify the lies he knowingly told about the LDS church: "When you're fighting the devil's church, anything goes."

But the BIBLE (as long as we are appealing to it) quotes Jesus telling people:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."

Do you see any blessings coming your way for making personal insults against other TWEB posters?

... shaming is an available tool....

Lots of tools are available. Doesn't mean they are Jesus-approved tools.

Ah... argumentum ad Pharisseum... when you can't rebut something, just claim the other person is doing what the Pharisees did.

I see. So if you (or CP or one of the Lesser Clergy in the Mockery Club) have ever accused me or Jo or OC or Frank of acting like a ____ (say, a baby) then the correct counterargument is "When you can't rebut something, just claim the other person is doing what a ___ does." Got it.

And for your information, Jesus' appraisal of the Pharisees had nothing to do with the language and cultural references He used. And you show yourself a bigot when you accuse as much.

Excuse me? So if any of you antis attribute (whatever the alleged flaw of the LDS this week is) to culture in any way, then you're being bigots? Didn't Jesus Himself tell His disciples "Don't be/do/act like the Pharisees" ? Isn't it common knowledge that the CULTURE of 1st-century Palestine was one where certain groups of Jews had a certain mindset? Are you accusing Jesus of bigotry?

No one is asking you to bow down to anyone except the real God, Jeff.

Don't you first need to figure out who the real God is, so you have an idea of whether the person you're accusing isn't already bowing down before Him?

The fact that you think this is personal is sad.

So it's not normal to take personal insults personally? Doesn't sound that weird to me. Quit the game of trying to see which of you can come up with the biggest putdown for high fives from each other. That is not evangelizing, it's not even debating. It's just Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert-Wannabe Tryouts.

The biggest insult (not to me, but doubtless to Jesus and to any real Evangelical who reads this circus) is when you do that and claim it's the Jesus-approved way of sharing His gospel. I don't think you can find that any of the pro-LDS posters has ever done that--played the insult and mockery game, and then, when caught, say "It's how we're supposed to share the gospel!"

[Bill the Cat]

---Question: Who gets to be the judge of whether a given poster's insult was "biblically necessary" ?

In my case, me. If I am wrong, then I will answer for it. But I do not believe I am wrong. I see dozens of instances of riposte in the Gospels alone, much less the rest of the Bible.

You might as well be asking me to agree that it is biblical to try to sacrifice one's son,

Non sequiter

and to commit holocausts against women and children of entire cities, and to be a polygamist when necessary.

Has nothing to do with honor/shame

Maybe that's the rationalization Ed Decker was using to justify the lies he knowingly told about the LDS church: "When you're fighting the devil's church, anything goes."

Genetic fallacy

But the BIBLE (as long as we are appealing to it) quotes Jesus telling people:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."

You do realize that the Bible is larger than the beattitudes, right? How's about this direction:

Rev 2:2 ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
Rev 2:3 and you have [c]perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.

Rev 2:6 Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Do you see any blessings coming your way for making personal insults against other TWEB posters?

Yes.

Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Lots of tools are available. Doesn't mean they are Jesus-approved tools.

Good thing shaming is Jesus approved.

I see. So if you (or CP or one of the Lesser Clergy in the Mockery Club)

HAHA Sparko!! I made a club!!

have ever accused me or Jo or OC or Frank of acting like a ____ (say, a baby) then the correct counterargument is "When you can't rebut something, just claim the other person is doing what a ___ does." Got it.

As long as you want to be consistent, go for it. It doesn't bother me a bit for you to insult me. I have Christ, in whom should I fear?

Excuse me?

Did you break wind or something?

So if any of you antis attribute (whatever the alleged flaw of the LDS this week is) to culture in any way, then you're being bigots?

no Jeff. Each person lives in a specific culture that did specific things. We can label them as we see them, but we need to see them in the cultural context they were occurring to evaluate whether they were in the wrong or not.

Didn't Jesus Himself tell His disciples "Don't be/do/act like the Pharisees" ?

Yes. But He did not say "don't act like anyone at all in this cultural context". The Pharisees and Scribes were a particularly corrupt subset of the culture, not the entirety of the culture.

Isn't it common knowledge that the CULTURE of 1st-century Palestine was one where certain groups of Jews had a certain mindset? Are you accusing Jesus of bigotry?

That doesn't even dignify an answer. I've been very careful to explain these things to you, yet you go the route of reductio ad absurdum instead of tackling the cultural connections that are obvious when one looks beyond one's own individualistic mindset.

Don't you first need to figure out who the real God is, so you have an idea of whether the person you're accusing isn't already bowing down before Him?

I have Jeff. He is the monotheistic God of the Jews who declared that there was no other god but Him. And when anyone denies monotheism, they deny Him.

So it's not normal to take personal insults personally? Doesn't sound that weird to me. Quit the game of trying to see which of you can come up with the biggest putdown for high fives from each other. That is not evangelizing, it's not even debating. It's just Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert-Wannabe Tryouts.

Who said I was trying to evangelize you? You seem quite aware of what the Gospel we are presenting is, yet you explicitly deny it. Therefore, you have become an enemy of my God - the God of Israel. And when you spout false doctrine, I will expose it and call you a wolf, just as Jesus did.

The biggest insult (not to me, but doubtless to Jesus and to any real Evangelical who reads this circus) is when you do that and claim it's the Jesus-approved way of sharing His gospel. I don't think you can find that any of the pro-LDS posters has ever done that--played the insult and mockery game, and then, when caught, say "It's how we're supposed to share the gospel!"

I'm not sharing the Gospel with you Jeff.

[Cow Poke]

---I see. So if you (or CP or one of the Lesser Clergy in the Mockery Club)

I have backed WAY off since before Christmas, Jeff

[nrajeff]

I have backed WAY off since before Christmas, Jeff

Thank you. I apologize for not noting that, and for as long as it continues, I will stop including you as an active member of the Club. Maybe the rest of us will follow your example.

[3abdulmesii7]

Excellent point. This probably wasn't the right forum to post this in.