Genesis 18 -- The LORD appears to Abraham

[Christian2]

1. Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot

2. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

Questions:

1. Did the LORD appear to Abraham in the form of a man?

2. Was the LORD one of the three men standing before Abraham?

3. Were the other two men angels?

Thank you.

[sylvius]

1. Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot

2. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

Questions:

1. Did the LORD appear to Abraham in the form of a man?

2. Was the LORD one of the three men standing before Abraham?

3. Were the other two men angels?

Thank you.

1. No

2. No

3. No, be it that all three of them were angels.

Genesis 18:22 reads:
And the men turned from there and went to Sodom, and Abraham was still standing before Hashem

These men must be (all of) the three men mentioned in v.2,
And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him.

Rashi:

and behold, three men: One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything” ; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated:“And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

[Christian2]

1. No

2. No

3. No, be it that all three of them were angels.

Genesis 18:22 reads:
And the men turned from there and went to Sodom, and Abraham was still standing before Hashem

These men must be (all of) the three men mentioned in v.2,
And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him.

Rashi:

and behold, three men: One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything” ; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated:“And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

Rashi's comments: And [the Lord] appeared to him: to visit the sick (Tan. Buber, Vayera 1). Said Rabbi Chama the son of Chanina: It was the third day from his circumcision, and the Holy One, blessed be He, came and inquired about his welfare (B. M. 86b).

Genesis 19:1. And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom, and Lot saw and arose toward them, and he prostrated himself on his face to the ground.

It appears two angels went to Sodom. The LORD had already left.

Thanks.

[sylvius]

It appears two angels went to Sodom. The LORD had already left.

Thanks.

No He didn't:

Genesis 19:24-25,
And the LORD caused to rain down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the LORD, from heaven.
And He turned over these cities and the entire plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and the vegetation of the ground.

[Christian2]

No He didn't:

Genesis 19:24-25,
And the LORD caused to rain down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the LORD, from heaven.
And He turned over these cities and the entire plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and the vegetation of the ground.

He rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah from heaven.

[sylvius]

He rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah from heaven.

He caused it to rain ...

"himtir" is written,

an hiphil-form (causative)

[Christian2]

He caused it to rain ...

"himtir" is written,

an hiphil-form (causative)

sylvius, I am re-reading the text and coming up with questions.

Genesis 18: 1. Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot [/quote]

There is no doubt the LORD visited Abraham.

The LORD spoke to Abraham and Abraham spoke to the LORD.

How did Abraham know he had a visit from God? Did he see Him?

Thanks.

[sylvius]

sylvius, I am re-reading the text and coming up with questions.

Genesis 18: 1. Now the Lord appeared to him in the plains of Mamre and he was sitting at the entrance of the tent when the day was hot

There is no doubt the LORD visited Abraham.

The LORD spoke to Abraham and Abraham spoke to the LORD.

How did Abraham know he had a visit from God? Did he see Him?

Thanks.

It is written: "vayeira eilav Hashem" = "and the LORD appeared to him" --

Same was written in the beforegoing chapter 17 v.1: "vayeira Hashem el Avram" = "and the LORD appeared to Abram".

Here no one assumes that God appeared in human form.

"In the plains of Mamre" - was also mentioned in Genesis 14:13,
And the fugitive came and he told Abram the Hebrew, and he was living in the plains of Mamre

The fugitive in Jewish tradition is known as the giant Og who survived the flood by sitting on top of Noach's ark.

Rashi:

The Midrash Gen. Rabbah [explains]: This is Og, who escaped from the Generation of the Flood, and this is the meaning of “from the rest of the Rephaim,” as it is said: (above 6: 4):“The Nephilim were on the earth, etc.” And he [Og] intended that Abram should be killed and he would marry Sarah (Gen. Rabbah 42:8).

The clue of this is the ark which in fact is the written word (Hebrew "teivah" = box, ark, basket; but also the word as written with letters)
Og just knowing the word from the outside, with no idea of inner meaning / mystery.

[apostoli]

Questions:

1. Did the LORD appear to Abraham in the form of a man?

2. Was the LORD one of the three men standing before Abraham?

3. Were the other two men angels?

1. No

2. No

3. No, be it that all three of them were angels.

Sylvius might be good at quoting Rashi but it seems he doesn't know about Rashi's reference point = "kavod nivra" = in regards to the theophanies they were/are of the opinion that YHWH created a visible being for the occasion, so from Abraham's viewpoint he was speaking with YHWH himself, as it was the "Memra of YHWH" that he received made visible as a man.

Sylvius in his apology hasn't taken account of Genesis 18:16-19:1...vs16 tells us the three "men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way" but note vs22 "So the men [the two angels] turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD [YHWH]" and they had a lengthy chat about what YHWH was going to do. Gen 19:1 identifies that the "men" that departed for Sodom, had arrived and conversed with Lot were angels, not men, though everyone that saw them viewed them to be men (Gen 19:5).

From a Jewish viewpoint the three men of Genesis 18:2 are later identified as the "Memra of YHWH" and two angels. Christian theologians agree (cp. John 8:40; 1:1). Various Rabbi would argue the the "Memra of YHWH" was not persistant, the being who was seen was created and existed for each theophany. Other Rabbi would argue that the "Memra of YHWH" is persistant throughout the OT record. Christianity agrees with the later, but argues that the Son in his pre-existence was the hypostases of the "Memra of YHWH"...

To answer your questions...

1. If you mean the Father, Spirit or Trinity then the answer is no. If you mean the "Memra of YHWH" which manifests God, then the answer is yes (cp. Jn 12:44-45; 14:9-11).

2. See answer to question 1 (cp. Gen 22:11-12. Note vs12 where the angel of the Lord equates himself with God).

3. Yes and no, depends on what you mean by "angel" - "mal'ak" can mean messenger, ambassador, minister etc. Except for maybe the "Memra of YHWH", according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Judaism has never had a complete system of angelology, but that said I'd suggest that the two angels that went to Sodom ministered to God's will (Gen 19:13).

It appears two angels went to Sodom. The LORD had already left.

No He didn't:

Genesis 19:24-25,
And the LORD caused to rain down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the LORD, from heaven.
And He turned over these cities and the entire plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and the vegetation of the ground.

From Gen 18:33 what we know is "And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham..." From vs16 we must assume he went to Sodom. From 19:6 onwards it seems that YHWH met up with the two angels, Lot & family outside the city, then once Lot etc had fled YHWH let rip...

He rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah from heaven.

Thats twisting scripture a bit too much. In the conservative Christian world your idea would be considered heretical. I assume, what you wrote isn't what you meant...

According to the standard interpretation of Gen 19:24, the YHWH seen by Abraham (the "Memra of YHWH") invoked from earth "brimstone and fire" that was sent by the YHWH in heaven. Then the YHWH seen by Abraham went about destroying the cities of the plain and remembering Abraham kept Lot safe (Gen 19:25-29).

[sylvius]

Sylvius might be good at quoting Rashi but it seems he doesn't know about Rashi's reference point = "kavod nivra" = in regards to the theophanies they were/are of the opinion that YHWH created a visible being for the occasion, so from Abraham's viewpoint he was speaking with YHWH himself, as it was the "Memra of YHWH" that he received made visible as a man.

"Memra" was introduced by targumists (translators of the Bible in Aramaic) to avoid anthropomorphism.

fe in Genesis 3:10,
"vayomer et kolcha shama'ti bagan", And he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden."

Onkelos translates:
"vaamar yat-kal meimrach shamiet b'ginta" = he said, I heard the sound of Your meimar ('word') in the garden. ""

See: Meimra-in-Onkelos

Sylvius in his apology hasn't taken account of Genesis 18:16-19:1...vs16 tells us the three "men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way" but note vs22 "So the men [the two angels] turned from there and went toward Sodom,

No they are the same three men, both in v.16 and v. 22

From a Jewish viewpoint the three men of Genesis 18:2 are later identified as the "Memra of YHWH" and two angels.

Where? Source?
(I don't believe it)

Christian theologians agree (cp. John 8:40; 1:1).

John was not a theologian.
"The word" in John 1:1 being the same "word" that was sown by the sower (Mark 4:14) and that was only accepted where it fell in the good earth.

Various Rabbi would argue the the "Memra of YHWH" was not persistant, the being who was seen was created and existed for each theophany. Other Rabbi would argue that the "Memra of YHWH" is persistant throughout the OT record. Christianity agrees with the later, but argues that the Son in his pre-existence was the hypostases of the "Memra of YHWH"...

It doesn't say me a bit.

cp. Gen 22:11-12. Note vs12 where the angel of the Lord equates himself with God

he doesn't.

[apostoli]

"Memra" was introduced by targumists (translators of the Bible in Aramaic) to avoid anthropomorphism.

That is only partly true ie: many instances where YHWH is said to speak became the Memra of God as the one speaking. Even when there was no hint of a antropomorphism, the targums used the phrase Memra of God, ie: every instance of the phrase "the angel of the Lord".

Sylvius in his apology hasn't taken account of Genesis 18:16-19:1...vs16 tells us the three "men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way" but note vs22 "So the men [the two angels] turned from there and went toward Sodom

No they are the same three men, both in v.16 and v. 22

Not according to scripture! This is evident in English & Hebrew. In the Talmud, it is said that the three men were the archangels Michael, Gabriel & Raphael, and "Michael came to foretell to Sarah. Raphael came to heal Avraham. Gavriel went to destroy Sodom. ... Michael [then] went to save Lot." ( T.B. Bava Metzia 86b & Targ. Yer. Gen. xviii. 2).
http://www.yesodei.org/archives/15-cheshvan-5768.html

From a Jewish viewpoint the three men of Genesis 18:2 are later identified as the "Memra of YHWH" and two angels.

Where? Source?(I don't believe it)

Read the Talmud or the Targums which explain the Torah. See above, even read Rashi or the Midrish, both of which give the archangels single tasks (albeit many a Rabbi points out there were three angels but four tasks). Just read the scriptures in Hebrew or English, it is obvious to everyone but you that one of the angels (identified as YHWH in the text) remained with Abraham whilst the other two went off to Sodom. The Talmud has it that after conversing with Abraham the angel (identified as YHWH in the text) then went to save Lot.

In Jewish circles there has been a lot of discussion concerning the word "וַיַרְא". Rashi asked "Why is וַיַרְא written twice [in this verse?] The first is to be understood according to its apparent meaning [i.e., and he saw], and the second means “understanding.” Various Rabbi suggest Abraham saw men at first then perceived who at least one of them actually was...


Of course I gave a generalisation when I used the phrase "a Jewish viewpoint", instead of the phrase "the Jewish viewpoint" as there evidently isn't a universal "Jewish viewpoint" concerning the text. For instance: Maimonides (Ramban) held that Abraham didn't experience a real event/s but a vision/dream. Other Rabbi see the text as allegory, teaching hospitality, care for the sick, grace, mercy & judgment (Rashi seems to fit into this category). Interestingly, Maimonides viewed God's appearance followed by the arrival of the three guests as a single event (which from an Orthodox Christian viewpoint is an interesting thought in the context of the Jewish thoughts on the text concerning mediation, mercy and judgement).

From a Jewish viewpoint the three men of Genesis 18:2 are later identified as the "Memra of YHWH" and two angels. Christian theologians agree (cp. John 8:40; 1:1).

John was not a theologian.

I didn't say he was, but as is obvious to anyone with eyes he provides a "spiritual" perception rather than mundane facts as we find in the synoptics.

"The word" in John 1:1 being the same "word" that was sown by the sower (Mark 4:14) and that was only accepted where it fell in the good earth.

You really should read John's Gospel and do some research concerning Jewish thought on the idea Logos/Sophia. You should particularly note that A.John calls the Logos the true light that came into the world (Jn 1:9) and that he is the creator of all things made (Jn 1:3). Both ideas are very Jewish but as various Rabbi would remark are ideas about the Torah. In the context of the Logos' incarnation, Christian theologians don't see a difficulty as in John's Gospel the Son came not to disolve the Torah but to fulfill it!

Various Rabbi would argue the the "Memra of YHWH" was not persistant, the being who was seen was created and existed for each theophany. Other Rabbi would argue that the "Memra of YHWH" is persistant throughout the OT record. Christianity agrees with the later, but argues that the Son in his pre-existence was the hypostases of the "Memra of YHWH"...

It doesn't say me a bit.

(?)

All I've given is two of the main Jewish thoughts on angelology. A third viewpoint is that all accounts of angels is fictitious, and what the patriachs and prophets experienced were dreams/visions ie: no physical manifestation occured.

cp. Gen 22:11-12. Note vs12 where the angel of the Lord equates himself with God

he doesn't.

Sure does as anyone who can see will read. Various Rabbi explain this as the angel of the Lord speaks with the authority of God but not as God. Though they admit such an idea is interpretative and doesn't reflect what the text taken literally says. Other Rabbi argue that as the angel of the Lord, is the very manifestation of God, he was God to the patriarchs who encountered him. Of course they argue that in scriptural thought "God" is a title not a unique person per se, thus the judges of old were refered to as gods, and scripture cannot be changed...

Considering Gen 20:1-2, 10-12 - Gen 20:11 makes it obvious who is talking from heaven and vs12 makes it obvious to whom Abraham had been obedient...

"...God tested Abraham and said to him; Abraham! And [Abraham] said: Here am I. [God] said: Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you... Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said: Abraham, Abraham!" And [Abraham] said: Here am I." [The angel of the Lord] said, "Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."

[sylvius]

That is only partly true ie: many instances where YHWH is said to speak became the Memra of God as the one speaking. Even when there was no hint of a antropomorphism, the targums used the phrase Memra of God, ie: every instance of the phrase "the angel of the Lord".

Where? Show some examples.

Not according to scripture! This is evident in English & Hebrew. In the Talmud, it is said that the three men were the archangels Michael, Gabriel & Raphael, and "Michael came to foretell to Sarah. Raphael came to heal Avraham. Gavriel went to destroy Sodom. ... Michael [then] went to save Lot." ( T.B. Bava Metzia 86b & Targ. Yer. Gen. xviii. 2).
http://www.yesodei.org/archives/15-cheshvan-5768.html

Read the Talmud or the Targums which explain the Torah. See above, even read Rashi or the Midrish, both of which give the archangels single tasks (albeit many a Rabbi points out there were three angels but four tasks). Just read the scriptures in Hebrew or English, it is obvious to everyone but you that one of the angels (identified as YHWH in the text) remained with Abraham whilst the other two went off to Sodom. The Talmud has it that after conversing with Abraham the angel (identified as YHWH in the text) then went to save Lot.

God is not an angel.

Various Rabbi suggest Abraham saw men at first then perceived who at least one of them actually was...

Improbable..

You should particularly note that A.John calls the Logos the true light that came into the world (Jn 1:9) and that he is the creator of all things made (Jn 1:3).

??

It is written, John 1:3-4. "everything happened throught it ( the word) and without it nothing happened that happened. In it was life, and the life was the light of men"

[apostoli]

"Memra" was introduced by targumists (translators of the Bible in Aramaic) to avoid anthropomorphism.

That is only partly true ie: many instances where YHWH is said to speak became the Memra of God as the one speaking. Even when there was no hint of a antropomorphism, the targums used the phrase Memra of God, ie: every instance of the phrase "the angel of the Lord".

Where? Show some examples.

Lets start with Genesis 1:1 which is translated in one of the Targums: "From the beginning with wisdom the Memra of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth." The Neofiti Targum actually has it this way; "From the beginning with wisdom the son of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth." The Jerusalem Targum renders Gen 1:26 as "And the Memra of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them".

There are heaps of available cites and they are readily available from the internet - do a google...You can even read the Targums online in an English rendition which provides the Babylonian Targums with the variations in the Jerusalem Targums. Here are a couple of links to get you going...
http://targum.info/targumic-texts/pe...chal-targumim/
http://targum.info/pj/pjgen18-22.htm

God is not an angel.

If you mean Hashem who is the source and cause of all things - I didn't say he was. I merely pointed out that in Genesis 18 one of the three men, the one that remained behind to chat with Moses while the other two men went to Sodom, is identified as YHWH by the author of the account in the original Hebrew. No Jewish Rabbi I've ever encountered whether Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Liberal or Messianic has ever disputed the fact, so why do you? Of course the various Rabbi readily interpret the meaning according to social custom of the day, wherein the Ambassador of the King speaks as if he is the King.

Rashi asked "Why is וַיַרְא written twice [in this verse?] The first is to be understood according to its apparent meaning [i.e., and he saw], and the second means “understanding.” Various Rabbi suggest Abraham saw men at first then perceived who at least one of them actually was...

Improbable..

Not only is it probable, it is fact = the Jewish interpretation as my citation of Rashi makes evident. It is a really common opinion amoungst Rabbi...

You should particularly note that A.John calls the Logos the true light that came into the world (Jn 1:9) and that he is the creator of all things made (Jn 1:3).

? It is written, John 1:3-4. "everything happened through it ( the word) and without it nothing happened that happened. In it was life, and the life was the light of men"

You really should read a valid translation of the Greek. Greek doesn't have a word for "it", all things are either masculine (he) or feminine (she). the Greek text uses the word "αὐτοῦ" which is a personal pronoun - genitive singular masculine.The Greek at John 1:3 in full says "πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν" the word usually translated "created" or "made" is "egeneto" = "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being" ("o gegonen"="came into being").

As for the light see John 1:6-9 wherein we learn that John the Baptist "came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him [vs4. the Logos in whom is life "and the life was the light of men"]...The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him..." (cp John 1:14-34). As anyone with eyes can see A.John is talking about the Logos, who "came to his own, and his own did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (vs11&12).

[sylvius]

Lets start with Genesis 1:1 which is translated in one of the Targums: "From the beginning with wisdom the Memra of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth."

This seeming to be Targum Neofiti:
link

The Neofiti Targum actually has it this way; "From the beginning with wisdom the son of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth."

which seems to be just Christian bullshit:
how-would-you-like-to-date-targum-neofiti/

TgNeof is most likely late second century CE not BC(E) as Driscoll states. Furthermore, his entire argument rests on an erroneous translation. He says that TgNeof Gen. 1. reads “In the beginning with the Firstborn God created….” It should be “From the beginning, with wisdom, the Lord created…” The text reads ‏מלקדמין בחכמה ברא {ד}ייי

The Jerusalem Targum renders Gen 1:26 as "And the Memra of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them".
There are heaps of available cites and they are readily available from the internet - do a google...You can even read the Targums online in an English rendition which provides the Babylonian Targums with the variations in the Jerusalem Targums. Here are a couple of links to get you going...
http://targum.info/targumic-texts/pe...chal-targumim/
http://targum.info/pj/pjgen18-22.htm

Thanks!

I merely pointed out that in Genesis 18 one of the three men, the one that remained behind to chat with Moses while the other two men went to Sodom, is identified as YHWH by the author of the account in the original Hebrew.

which is simply no true.

No Jewish Rabbi I've ever encountered whether Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Liberal or Messianic has ever disputed the fact

That's very strange!

Not only is it probable, it is fact = the Jewish interpretation as my citation of Rashi makes evident. It is a really common opinion amoungst Rabbi...

Rashi doesn't say so...
Rashi on Genesis 18

As anyone with eyes can see A.John is talking about the Logos,

He was talking about the light, which in Jewish tradition is called "or haganuz" , the hidden light, the light of the first day that immediately was taken away so that the wicked people should not make use of it.
(Which is also the mystery of the 153 large fishes of John 21:11, 153 being 17, and 17 = "tov", good -
and "tov" is the light of the first day and and also the 153rd word of the Torah, in Genesis 1:12 --
"And God saw Adam's sin that it was good" = the essence of the Gospel)

[apostoli]

Lets start with Genesis 1:1 which is translated in one of the Targums: "From the beginning with wisdom the Memra of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth."

This seeming to be Targum Neofiti

Or one of the numerous translations of it...or a rendering of one of the variants in the Targum mss fragments...

The Neofiti Targum actually has it this way; "From the beginning with wisdom the son of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth."

which seems to be just Christian bullshit:

Could be, but it is highly unlikely, for as far as I know, the "Christians" never appealed to the Targums until modern times. In any case the Targums fell into disuse pretty quickly after the diaspora, as very few people spoke Aramaic, especially in the Christian heart-lands. As I understand it the Jewish tradition of reading the Hebrew, then the Aramaic Targum continued for some time, but after a short time few outside of Palestine & Syria understood what was being said, so a third reading in the local venacular arose - so I'm assuming translation issues arose...

It is more probable that the cited rendering evolved as an internal Jewish polemic against Christian opinion eg: Michael being the first amoung many sons - think like a Rabbi in opposition and the Jewish arguments abound. It is also possible that Targumist is reconciling the "creation of wisdom" in Proverbs 8 "for how can God have a need to create wisdom when he is all wise?" Solution, he imbued his first creation (Michael?) with his wisdom. The "Michael" theme was also dominate in Christianity up until the later days of Calvin, but as you would know the Christian debate was whether the Son was created from nothing or begotten from God's wisdom/love... In my observation Rabbinic debate had a greater influence on Christian thought than the other way around, though the Rabbi came up with some creative arguments against Christian opinion...

One thing you should consider is that in many places the Targums directly contradict what is written in the Hebrew scriptures...in fact there are numerous places where the Targums and the Talmud are often in conflict...

I merely pointed out that in Genesis 18 one of the three men, the one that remained behind to chat with Moses while the other two men went to Sodom, is identified as YHWH by the author of the account in the original Hebrew.

which is simply no[t] true.

The Targums, Midrash, have it that only two of the men went to Sodom, one to save Lot, the other to destroy the cities on the plain. The one that stayed to talk to Abraham returned to heaven. Other Jewish writings have it that the one that stayed to talk to Abraham joined up with the other two men later on. So your opinion has absolutely no support from the Rabbi or Christendom or a simple reading of whats written in the scriptures.

Not only is it probable, it is fact = the Jewish interpretation as my citation of Rashi makes evident. It is a really common opinion amoungst Rabbi...

Rashi doesn't say so...Rashi on Genesis 18

See Rashi's commentary on verse 2, subject "and he saw"...

and he saw: Why is וַיַרְא written twice [in this verse?] The first is to be understood according to its apparent meaning [i.e., and he saw], and the second means “understanding.” I admit that on face value Rashi puts a different slant on what Abraham undestood (though see his commentary on vs10) to what other Rabbi give, but then again Rashi deriving his opinion from the Targums is often in direct contradiction of both scripture and the Talmud. There is heaps written on the subject by Jewish scholars...

In anycase Rashi doesn't on face value explain how Abraham came to realise that he was speaking with the emissary of YHWH, or as the Hebrew scriptures depict YHWH, though in his commentary on Gen 18;10 he remarks (without any support, only opinion) that "I will surely return: The angel did not announce that he [himself] would return to him, but he was speaking to him as an emissary of the Omnipresent. Similarly (above 16: 10): “And the angel said to her: I will greatly multiply [your seed]” but he [the angel] did not have the power to multiply [her children], but he spoke as an emissary of the Omnipresent."

Personally, I have no problem with the emissary idea. It is consistant with both Orthodox Jewish and Orthodox Christian thought. The issue with Rashi etc is how did Abraham come to accept the man's words as having any value (?), the regular conclusion is he perceived that the man wasn't just a man = the reason וַיַרְא is written twice.

As anyone with eyes can see A.John is talking about the Logos,

He was talking about the light, which in Jewish tradition is called "or haganuz" , the hidden light, the light of the first day that immediately was taken away so that the wicked people should not make use of it.
(Which is also the mystery of the 153 large fishes of John 21:11, 153 being 17, and 17 = "tov", good -
and "tov" is the light of the first day and and also the 153rd word of the Torah, in Genesis 1:12 --
"And God saw Adam's sin that it was good" = the essence of the Gospel)

Who was it that John the Baptist came to witness of and did make witness? Who came to his own and was not received? Who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not? Who is the subject of John 1:1-12 ?