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JimL's Case for the Impeachment of Trump

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I do. anything is possible. But I want to see evidence FIRST, not after he is "convicted" by the public. But again, even if he did collude with the Russians, unless he conspired and helped them do the hacking he didn't commit a crime. But anything is possible. If the evidence proves he committed an actual federal crime, then I will believe he is guilty.
    Good answer. I feel a little less certain MM is going to say the same but that may be due to my own biased take on this. Now, at least he will be tempted to agree with you.
    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      So, AGAIN, I ask....

      what specific charge would you use to start impeachment proceedings against Trump?
      We can start with obstruction of justice. Trump admitted that he fired Comey because of the Russian Investigation-thats obstruction of Justice. Trump admitted to that in his interview with Lester Holt, he also admitted it to his Russian spy buddies in the White House the day after he fired Comey. He also tried to intimidate a witness by suggesting that he had taped his conversations with Comey-thats obstruction of Justice. Then you have his violation of the emoluments clause of the Constitution for which he is already being sued. Personally I believe it goes much deeper than that, of course, because you don't try to impede an investigation, knowing the illegality of the act, unless you are afraid it will somehow connect back to you. We also know that Trump is a pathological liar, perhaps you've seen the recent NY Times article enumerating his lies, and though lying is not in and of itself an impeachable offense, no american, or ally for that matter, should want such a person to be anywhere near the White House.
      The thing is, Republicans control Congress, and there is little chance that they will agree to impeachment hearings, at least not until the evidence becomes so undeniable and the American people demand it. So, the investigation will go on, and we shall see where else it leads. My guess is that Trump is in this a lot deeper than we so far know for certain.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        We can start with obstruction of justice. Trump admitted that he fired Comey because of the Russian Investigation-thats obstruction of Justice. Trump admitted to that in his interview with Lester Holt, he also admitted it to his Russian spy buddies in the White House the day after he fired Comey. He also tried to intimidate a witness by suggesting that he had taped his conversations with Comey-thats obstruction of Justice. Then you have his violation of the emoluments clause of the Constitution for which he is already being sued. Personally I believe it goes much deeper than that, of course, because you don't try to impede an investigation, knowing the illegality of the act, unless you are afraid it will somehow connect back to you. We also know that Trump is a pathological liar, perhaps you've seen the recent NY Times article enumerating his lies, and though lying is not in and of itself an impeachable offense, no american, or ally for that matter, should want such a person to be anywhere near the White House.
        Jim, there's no smoking gun in any of that -- there's not even a cap pistol. Where is the law that Trump broke? Even if he did exactly what you claim, cite the ordinance or federal law he broke. There have to specifics - not just a bunch of circumstantial accusations. Trump also said he could walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and be OK. (or something like that) Should he be charged with murder? You're doing what so many other liberals are doing --- you're taking Trump literally, but you're not taking him seriously.

        The thing is, Republicans control Congress, and there is little chance that they will agree to impeachment hearings, at least not until the evidence becomes so undeniable and the American people demand it.
        Here's where I don't think you understand the process, Jim. When you say "Congress", you're correct that the Republicans control "both houses" of Congress. But it's the House of Representatives that would need to start the impeachment process, then the Senate needs to convict. You have yet to lay out a case that's more than a bunch of accusations and speculation and stupid statements by Trump.

        So, the investigation will go on, and we shall see where else it leads.
        But, as I quoted you saying earlier, you have already assumed he will be removed from office. That's a FAR CRY from "see where it leads".

        My guess is that Trump is in this a lot deeper than we so far know for certain.
        I think the truth of the matter is that you're hoping against hope that this is "a lot deeper than we so far know for certain". You have already jumped to the conclusion that he's done!

        So, how bout just backing off a bit, and maintain the position you just espoused --- let's see where the FACTS actually lead, and stop jumping to conclusions.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Charles View Post
          Good answer. I feel a little less certain MM is going to say the same but that may be due to my own biased take on this. Now, at least he will be tempted to agree with you.
          My entirely cynical take on this is that I suspect you're trying to make this about MM in order to take a little pressure off your buddy JimL. You may be right about MM, but this thread isn't about him.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            My entirely cynical take on this is that I suspect you're trying to make this about MM in order to take a little pressure off your buddy JimL. You may be right about MM, but this thread isn't about him.
            And I appreciate the fact that JimL is honestly engaging and making an attempt to defend his position.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              And I appreciate the fact that JimL is honestly engaging and making an attempt to defend his position.
              Well, he's making the attempt. I'm still seeing a whole lot of assertion without a whole lot (as none whatsoever) of commensurate support, though.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                My guess is that Trump is in this a lot deeper than we so far know for certain.
                Yes! Yes! He's in so deep that he's covered up all the evidence! That's why nobody can find any! That proves he's guilty!
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  Originally posted by Sparko
                  I do. anything is possible. But I want to see evidence FIRST, not after he is "convicted" by the public. But again, even if he did collude with the Russians, unless he conspired and helped them do the hacking he didn't commit a crime. But anything is possible. If the evidence proves he committed an actual federal crime, then I will believe he is guilty.
                  Good answer. I feel a little less certain MM is going to say the same but that may be due to my own biased take on this. Now, at least he will be tempted to agree with you.
                  Um... my stance has always been that if Trump is guilty then show me the evidence, and I will concede that he's guilty. It's certainly possible that he's guilty of colluding with Russia, just as it's generally possible that any of us are guilty of committing a crime, but given the complete lack of evidence, I think it's more likely that Trump is innocent.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Um... my stance has always been that if Trump is guilty then show me the evidence, and I will concede that he's guilty. It's certainly possible that he's guilty of colluding with Russia, just as it's generally possible that any of us are guilty of committing a crime, but given the complete lack of evidence, I think it's more likely that Trump is innocent.
                    Ahem... Charles?
                    Yeah, I told you this was Mountain Man's position because he's stated it several times.
                    At this point I have to assume you've not been reading Mountain Man's posts, but rather, a CNN summation of his posts.



                    Don't doubt me again or I'll be offended.
                    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Well, he's making the attempt. I'm still seeing a whole lot of assertion without a whole lot (as none whatsoever) of commensurate support, though.
                      OGP, that had to be sarcasm on the part of CP.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Charles View Post
                        Do you acknowledge this, Mountain Man?
                        Well he ‘amened’ the post along with a raft of the usual (Trump can do no wrong) suspects. It’s the position just about all of us holds, and said so several times. Namely 1: That Trump could be guilty and 2: That evidence could be discovered that proves he is guilty. Given that there is certain evidence that Russia hacked the election and that there are several investigations in train plus a Special Counsel appointed, there is no other position to take. Not that you would know it with the ‘huffing ‘n puffing’ and dog-like devotion of the ever faithful MM. Sad!
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                          Ahem... Charles?
                          Yeah, I told you this was Mountain Man's position because he's stated it several times.
                          At this point I have to assume you've not been reading Mountain Man's posts, but rather, a CNN summation of his posts.



                          Don't doubt me again or I'll be offended.
                          I always doubt you.

                          But I found it interesting to read MM's answer. The reason I asked was because I don't remember seeing him taking any "smoke" as even the slightest indication of a possibility of anything. He is still talking about a "complete lack" of evidence. (Not that i want to bother trying to explain again, again, again, again and again that this is not the conclusion of what Clapper said )
                          Last edited by Charles; 06-28-2017, 02:52 AM.
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            But I found it interesting to read MM's answer. The reason I asked was because I don't remember seeing him taking any "smoke" as even the slightest indication of a possibility of anything. He is still talking about a "complete lack" of evidence. (Not that i want to bother trying to explain again, again, again, again and again that this is not the conclusion of what Clapper said )
                            The fact is that everybody who has commented on the record (this is the important part; anonymous sources are simply not trustworthy) has unanimously said there is no evidence linking Trump to Russia, and that Trump isn't even a target of investigation. Even a CNN supervising producer was outed admitting that the whole thing is "BS":

                            (Emphasis mine.)
                            Source: Breitbart

                            “Could be [BS]. I mean, it’s mostly [BS] right now,” the CNN producer, John Bonifield, said in a video O’Keefe’s Project Veritas released on Tuesday, when asked about his thoughts on the Russia investigation. “Like, we don’t have any giant proof. Then they say, well there’s still an investigation going on. And you’re like, yeah, I don’t know. If they were finding something we would know about it. The way these leaks happen, they would leak it. They’d leak. If it was something really good, it would leak…. The leaks keep leaking and there’s so many great leaks, and it’s amazing. I just refuse to believe that if they had something really good like that that wouldn’t leak because we’ve been getting all these other leaks. So, I just feel like they don’t really have it but they want to keep digging. And so I think the president is probably right to say, like, look you are witch hunting me. You have no smoking gun. You have no real proof.”

                            The video also shows Bonifield admitting that he has not seen evidence that Trump has committed any crimes.

                            I haven’t seen any good evidence to show the president committed a crime,” Bonifield says in the video.

                            http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...l-for-ratings/

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            If there was a smoking gun, it's almost impossible we wouldn't know about it given the months of investigation, prevalence of leaks, and official, on the record testimony. The only "smoke" we've seen is the smoke and mirrors from the Democrats.

                            So to summarize my position, it's possible that Trump is guilty, but it's more likely he's innocent. This strikes me as both obvious and reasonable. But then, I'm not a braindead liberal.
                            Last edited by Mountain Man; 06-28-2017, 07:10 AM.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Well he ‘amened’ the post along with a raft of the usual (Trump can do no wrong) suspects. It’s the position just about all of us holds, and said so several times. Namely 1: That Trump could be guilty and 2: That evidence could be discovered that proves he is guilty (and especially 3: We're desperately hoping that he IS guilty). Given that there is certain evidence that Russia hacked the election and that there are several investigations in train plus a Special Counsel appointed, there is no other position to take. Not that you would know it with the ‘huffing ‘n puffing’ and dog-like devotion of the ever faithful MM. Sad!
                              Fixed that for you.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                OGP, that had to be sarcasm on the part of CP.
                                No, I really think he appreciates that JimL is making the attempt, even if it falls rather short of what he'd hoped.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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