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Thread: Questions about Galatians

  1. #21
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    I'll probably end up reiterating things from some other posters in the thread, mainly, I think, "mikewhitney."

    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    It is specifically stated (on multiple occasions) that "Love your neighbor as yourself" means obeying the moral laws.

    Romans 13:15
    For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    First, I don't see a verse 15 in Rom. 13 in any translation I have handy.

    More pertinently, ISTM that your approach is bass-ackwards. The context of Rom. 13, esp. vv. 8-10, clearly (to me) indicates something along the lines of, "If you just follow Lev. 19:18, you don't need to be concerned with any of the rest of the Law."

    This is also the clear (to me) implication of Gal. 5:14.

    Contrary to your assertion, I am not aware of any of the "multiple" places where we are "specifically" told that "Love your neighbor" means adhering to the "moral laws." I'm aware of a *few* places in 1 John that could *imply* that -- places where he says that "love" means "keeping His commandments"; there are at least as many that give the reverse implication, viz. that love itself is THE commandment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    He explicitly says, "if there be any other commandment," then it is summarized by the phrase, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Hence, he doesn't have to list all the commandments. The point is that all the non-ceremonial laws are something that Jesus wants us to follow because they all fall under the category of love for neighbor. In Hebrews 9, it specifically describes the obsolete laws as being matters of food and drink, washings, etc. The moral laws are part of the law of Christ.
    I cannot but see that the divisions among moral, ceremonial, and civil are inventions of men, not the clear teaching of Scripture itself.

    1 Corinthians 9:21
    [T]o them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


    James 2:12
    So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    The context seems (to me) to indicate that the "law of liberty" may be the "Royal Law," "Love your neighbor as yourself" in v. 8. As with the Pauline examples, I see James saying that in following the Royal Law of Lev. 19:18, one need not concern himself with the specific laws of the Decalogue.

    Paul explicitly said that "Love your neighbor as yourself" fulfills the entirety of the Law, and that love does no harm to a neighbor. In the Synoptics, Jesus said that all the Law and Prophets depended on "Love the LORD with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." In Matthew, He said that the essence of the entire Law and Prophets is "Treat others as you wish others to treat you." That wording is reminiscent of Paul in Rom. 13, where he says that love does no harm to a neighbor. Even apart from that, I can think of no better way of expressing "Love your neighbor as yourself" in *practical* terms.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  2. #22
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    The purpose of the Law was to show we are in need of salvation. Like a mirror where we can see ourselves and see we have dirt on our face.

    Since we are all sinners, all the law can do is condemn. The law also pictured the promised solution (Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:16-17).

    1 Timothy 1:9,
    . . . Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. . . .


    Also see Romans 3:19; James 2:10; Deuteronomy 27:26.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  3. Amen Thoughtful Monk amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    True enough. The old law was made obsolete - but there is a new law which has its own provisions. It is like moving from (say) America to Canada. Murder and such are violations of the law in both, but definitions and penalties aren't quite the same.
    In Biblical terms, the old law permitted divorce at will - the new law doesn't. The old law had a definition for murder which is not the same as the definition for murder under the new law. etc and so forth.
    The Old Law, having been fulfilled, no longer is in force.
    I agree that the old law was made obsolete. The doing away with the Old Covenant implies doing away with the old law.

    Before the Law of Moses came into existence, certain things were morally wrong. Cain killed Abel and this was wrong. People were doing wicked things during the time of Noah, which is why God brought the flood upon the earth. Does this imply that there was some other law before the Law of Moses? Is this law applicable to us today?

  5. #24
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    It is a simple matter of the Old Law having been fulfilled, there is no requirement to continue in the provisions of that law. To paraphrase the analogy in Hebrews - once the obligations imposed under the terms of a mortgage have been fulfilled (the mortgage being paid out) there is no longer an obligation to continue paying the mortgage. To continue and expand on that analogy, however, the Old Mortgage hasn't been paid out by the original mortgagee, but by someone else to whom the original mortgagee is now indebted, with a new and different kind of contract in place. The New Contract (testament) needs to be checked for whatever provisions may apply.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  6. #25
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    It is a simple matter of the Old Law having been fulfilled, there is no requirement to continue in the provisions of that law. To paraphrase the analogy in Hebrews - once the obligations imposed under the terms of a mortgage have been fulfilled (the mortgage being paid out) there is no longer an obligation to continue paying the mortgage. To continue and expand on that analogy, however, the Old Mortgage hasn't been paid out by the original mortgagee, but by someone else to whom the original mortgagee is now indebted, with a new and different kind of contract in place. The New Contract (testament) needs to be checked for whatever provisions may apply.
    However, we should be cautious of reading any of those provisions as new "laws" to which we are obliged.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  7. #26
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    However, we should be cautious of reading any of those provisions as new "laws" to which we are obliged.
    "Laws" or "commands," if the latter be preferred, do apply methinks.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you... [Jesus]

    Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance. [Paul]

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ... 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  8. #27
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    "Laws" or "commands," if the latter be preferred, do apply methinks.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you... [Jesus]
    Which Jesus should we follow -- this one, or the one who in John 6 taught that in order to do the work of God and inherit eternal life, the only "work" necessary was faith/belief in Him?

    Acts 26:20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance. [Paul]

    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
    Which Paul should we believe -- the one quoted here, or the one who taught in Romans and Galatians -- and in fact in the previous two verses in Ephesians -- that it is faith, not works, that saves us; and in Gal. 3 that we complete and perfect our walk the way it began -- by faith and the Spirit; and perhaps most pertinently, taught us in 2 Cor. 3 that "the letter kills"?

    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ... 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    Do we believe James rather than his brother Jesus as quoted by John in John 6? Do we believe James rather than Paul, who just as explicitly -- and repeatedly -- said that in fact we *are* saved by faith and not works? Or do we, seeing v. 18, perceive James to be saying that works *demonstrate* faith that saves, as opposed to being rules we must follow in order to achieve salvation?

    I frankly find Scripture inconsistent and ambiguous. I choose the way of grace and liberty, and so the only guideline I make a conscious effort to follow is "Treat others as you wish others to treat you." And even then, I don't understand it as something I "must" do in order to hang on to salvation.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

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    tWebber
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    As the Mosaic Law was to lead the Jews to Jesus and thus when he came the Law was not longer needed as Jesus would take over leading in the worship of God so the Law of the Jews was no longer of any use to worship God, it was ended.-Rom. 10:4
    BU

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