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The flaws of NT-based morality

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    The undeniable fact remains that the majority of Christians over many centuries were OK with slavery and there’s considerable evidence that often slavery was justified with biblical references.
    Tass put up or shut - where is the evidence that the "majority" of Christians over the "centuries" were OK with slavery?


    As well, judging by the current white Supremacist protests in Charlottesville over the removal of Robert E Lee’s statue, many still are OK with slavery and anti-black discrimination. Steve Bannon must be pleased.
    Hey, I don't want the statue removed either, that does not mean I'm a Supremacist, or that the majority of Supremacists are Christian.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Tass put up or shut - where is the evidence that the "majority" of Christians over the "centuries" were OK with slavery?
      For over a millenium the Catholic church was pretty clearly pro-slavery. Augustine, Pope Gregory I, and Thomas Aquinas, all wrote that slavery was okay and justified the holding of slaves in their writings. Pope Gregory IX added to canon law in the 13th century explicit official support for slavery. Pope Nicholas in 1452 wrote to the King of Portugal and again in 1455 giving him explicit permission to take African slaves and to engage in the African slave trade. These instructions were explicitly reconfirmed by three subsequent popes in 1456, 1481, and 1514. In 1488 a Pope received a gift of 100 slaves and distributed them around the cardinals in the Vatican. In 1537 a pope banned enslavement of the indigenous people of the Americas but also issued a variety of pronouncements extending slavery within Europe (1535, 1545, 1547, 1548). In 1591 a new pope followed up on the ban on slavery of new indigenous peoples, extending it to include the Philippines. In 1639 a new pope extended that ban on slavery of new indigenous peoples to include central and south america, but himself purchased many African slaves for use on his ships.

      In the 19th century the attitude of the Catholic church shifted to be mostly against slavery. Popes in 1815, 1839, and 1888 stated their opposition to slavery in general and recommended its abolition. This shift in opinion was not universal however, and as late as 1866 a pope issued a document saying:
      "...slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons. For the sort of ownership which a slave-owner has over a slave is understood as nothing other than the perpetual right of disposing of the work of a slave for one's own benefit – services which it is right for one human being to provide for another. From this it follows that it is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or donated, provided that in this sale, purchase, exchange or gift, the due conditions are strictly observed which the approved authors likewise describe and explain. Among these conditions the most important ones are that the purchaser should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue or Catholic faith of the slave who is to be transferred to another's possession."

      By the 20th century, the Catholic church was officially unanimously against slavery with Vatican II explicitly condemning it and John Paul II labelling it "intrinsically evil" (i.e. always evil under all circumstances and at all times).

      Obviously there were diverse views among protestant groups on slavery after the Reformation. Most of the slave-holders in the US were protestants, and the Southern Baptists were essentially founded to defend slavery, and Methodist founder George Whitefield campaigned successfully for the reintroduction of slavery to Georgia after it had been banned there. But many of the abolitionist groups were also protestant.

      Anyway, it seems clear that for the majority of the 2 millennia of Christianity, that official Christian teaching as outlined in authoritative documents affirmed the validity of slavery, and Christian people themselves had slaves in practice. Tass's statement that the majority of Christians over many centuries were okay with slavery seems entirely true.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The point is that science has the methodology to arrive at verified facts sufficient to enable major technological advances, whereas differing, mutually exclusive textual interpretations cannot have such certainty.
        Do you really think that science is the only field to have a reliable interpretive methodology??

        Do you really think that no part of the Bible can be interpreted with certainty??
        "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Tass put up or shut - where is the evidence that the "majority" of Christians over the "centuries" were OK with slavery?
          The Christian colonial powers practised slavery for centuries without objection from white Christians.

          Hey, I don't want the statue removed either, that does not mean I'm a Supremacist, or that the majority of Supremacists are Christian.
          It does! Robert E Lee was a traitor to the Union and fought for slavery. That's why the statue has become a focal point to the KKK and other white supremacists. It was there that the mob of white men marched in Charlottesville carrying flaming torches Friday night shouting “Heil Trump” as the curtain-raiser for a day of violent clashes with counter protesters that left three people dead. And Trump was the one with the match who lit the torches.
          Last edited by Tassman; 08-14-2017, 05:12 AM.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
            Do you really think that science is the only field to have a reliable interpretive methodology??
            Science has the most effective methodology because, unlike other fields, it can be verified, multiply tested, acquire new knowledge and make technical advances.

            Do you really think that no part of the Bible can be interpreted with certainty??
            There is general agreement that the non-miraculous parts of the NT have a degree of certainly. That’s about it.
            Last edited by Tassman; 08-14-2017, 05:06 AM.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Anyway, it seems clear that for the majority of the 2 millennia of Christianity, that official Christian teaching as outlined in authoritative documents affirmed the validity of slavery, and Christian people themselves had slaves in practice. Tass's statement that the majority of Christians over many centuries were okay with slavery seems entirely true.
              No it doesn't seem clear that the majority of Christians supported Slavery. What was the position of the Orthodox or Eastern Church or Coptic? And we were speaking of the US. The fact is you have no idea if the majority of individual Christians supported slavery or not.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                The Christian colonial powers practised slavery for centuries without objection from white Christians.
                Well slavery like I said was pretty much universal. And since it was pretty much white Christians that brought it down in the West obviously there were white Christians who objected.

                It does! Robert E Lee was a traitor to the Union and fought for slavery. That's why the statue has become a focal point to the KKK and other white supremacists. It was there that the mob of white men marched in Charlottesville carrying flaming torches Friday night shouting “Heil Trump” as the curtain-raiser for a day of violent clashes with counter protesters that left three people dead. And Trump was the one with the match who lit the torches.
                The statue is also a focal point for many who want history remembered. And they want to remove the statue primarily because of slavery. But where will this end? Is Jefferson next:

                http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...624-story.html

                I'm sorry if snowflakes are triggered by statues - get over it.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  When asked, yes. But history gives another answer.
                  Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                  They all say so, but they all select their interpretations. What they really oppose is anyone's selection but their own.
                  Yes, this is a common belief of skeptics that bears little resemblance to reality. While there might be isolated instances of selective interpretation throughout the history of Christianity, Christians in general do their best to avoid it.

                  The other problem is that skeptics are largely (and often willfully) ignorant of proper Biblical interpretation, so the accusation of "selectivity" is more often than not a knee-jerk reaction rather than a reasoned rebuttal.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                  • what a lot of liberals don't realize is that much of the confederate symbolism (flags, statues, place names) came about as part of the reconciliation between north and south. Honoring the soldiers of the south was a way to embrace the south back into the Union, to say all is forgiven, welcome back brother, let's have peace. By destroying the statues, taking down the flags, renaming the streets and buildings, they are taking all that away.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      what a lot of liberals don't realize is that much of the confederate symbolism (flags, statues, place names) came about as part of the reconciliation between north and south. Honoring the soldiers of the south was a way to embrace the south back into the Union, to say all is forgiven, welcome back brother, let's have peace. By destroying the statues, taking down the flags, renaming the streets and buildings, they are taking all that away.
                      Yep!
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        what a lot of liberals don't realize is that much of the confederate symbolism (flags, statues, place names) came about as part of the reconciliation between north and south. Honoring the soldiers of the south was a way to embrace the south back into the Union, to say all is forgiven, welcome back brother, let's have peace. By destroying the statues, taking down the flags, renaming the streets and buildings, they are taking all that away.
                        Hogwash! And even if that were true, it still wouldn't make it right. Those enshrined Southern leaders and the flag they fought under were treasoness in their attempt to overthrow the U.S. government, and to glorify them and their treasoness and racist heritage sends the wrong message. The history is in the books, we don't need to glorify the inglorious bastards, particularly in the face of those they sought to continue to enslave.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Yes, this is a common belief of skeptics that bears little resemblance to reality. While there might be isolated instances of selective interpretation throughout the history of Christianity, Christians in general do their best to avoid it.

                          The other problem is that skeptics are largely (and often willfully) ignorant of proper Biblical interpretation, so the accusation of "selectivity" is more often than not a knee-jerk reaction rather than a reasoned rebuttal.
                          I like the fact that this is stated shortly after Starlight showed that quite many Christians, including Augustine, Pope Gregory I, and Thomas Aquinas, supported slavery: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post467517

                          But of course we are willfully ignorant of the good reason to think so, or what? Or we are willfully ignorant that the Bible stated the opposite while the Church fathers and the pope ignored this? And we are willfully ignorant that Genesis was not to be taken as an account on how the world was really created? Or perhaps we are willfully ignorant of the opposite? And we are willfully ignorant that the Bible states that the Sun is the center of the universe? Or we are willfully ignorant of the opposite?

                          It is rather easy to just claim those who disagree with you are willfully ignorant. And by following this method you make sure that neither you nor they nor the readers become any the wiser. Perhaps that method is what we should call willfully ignorant?
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Hogwash! And even if that were true,
                            lol. typical jimmy. deny! then admit he doesn't even know the truth.


                            Yes Jim. study some history.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Hogwash! And even if that were true, it still wouldn't make it right. Those enshrined Southern leaders and the flag they fought under were treasoness in their attempt to overthrow the U.S. government, and to glorify them and their treasoness and racist heritage sends the wrong message. The history is in the books, we don't need to glorify the inglorious bastards, particularly in the face of those they sought to continue to enslave.
                              Who is the treasoness and why are you bringing her into this?
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                I like the fact that this is stated shortly after Starlight showed that quite many Christians, including Augustine, Pope Gregory I, and Thomas Aquinas, supported slavery: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post467517

                                But of course we are willfully ignorant of the good reason to think so, or what? Or we are willfully ignorant that the Bible stated the opposite while the Church fathers and the pope ignored this? And we are willfully ignorant that Genesis was not to be taken as an account on how the world was really created? Or perhaps we are willfully ignorant of the opposite? And we are willfully ignorant that the Bible states that the Sun is the center of the universe? Or we are willfully ignorant of the opposite?

                                It is rather easy to just claim those who disagree with you are willfully ignorant. And by following this method you make sure that neither you nor they nor the readers become any the wiser. Perhaps that method is what we should call willfully ignorant?
                                Of course, slavery in the Roman Empire/Old Testament was a rather different animal than the chattel slavery post-Renaissance. It was often temporary (hence the class of 'freedmen'); slaves could buy their way free. It also seems, IIRC, that the goal of a slave often wasn't to become free; rather, it was to own a slave of their own.

                                Apples are not oranges, no matter what color you paint them.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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