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The flaws of NT-based morality

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  • The flaws of NT-based morality

    A lot of people seem to take for granted that the moral teachings of the NT are great, or that the NT serves as a useful guide to modern morality. However, it seems to me that in addition to some of its good teachings, the NT has a great many failings and shortcomings. I'm reposting here for a more general audience & discussion something I just posted deep in an obscure thread on the Philosophy forum:

    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Moral issues the NT is morally wrong on:
    Slavery, homosexuality, divorce, the subordination of women, marital rape, eternal punishment, obedience to authoritarian governments.

    Moral issues the NT is a bit unclear about:
    Non-violence, polygamy, sex before marriage, racial discrimination (as evidenced by the long history of racial discrimination in the Christian countries of USA and South Africa), interracial marriage.

    Moral issues the NT fails to speak to:
    Torture, genocide, war crimes, human rights, animal rights, women's rights, abortion, contraceptives.
    I've probably left out several important moral failings of the NT in this off-the-top-of-my-head listing. It's worth noting that while the NT can claim great moral teachings like the Golden Rule, that it's known as the Golden Rule precisely because it has been found in all sorts of societies and philosophies and religious teachings throughout history. I don't dispute that the NT has plenty of good moral teachings. But it also has plenty of bad ones. And, also importantly for anyone trying to base their entire morality on the NT: There are a vast number of moral topics that the NT simply doesn't touch on at all, or on which the NT references only very obscurely and unclearly.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    A note about the Golden Rule. AFAICT in all other cultures it is expressed in the negative form such as can be seen in the Analects of Confucianism: "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself" whereas in Christianity it is expressed in the positive form "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This is an unique approach.

    In The Great Texts of the Bible James Hastings explained the difference by noting that Christ showed

    "that love cannot be satisfied with this cold abstinence from harm-doing. Active, energetic benevolence is the only true outcome of a character which has yielded to, and been moulded by, the Divine bounty. Frigid negatives satisfy neither Law nor Gospel.

    Our Lord translated other men’s negatives into God’s positive. Hitherto, the Golden Rule among men had been in the merely negative form. “That which is hateful to thyself do not do to thy neighbour”; that is to say, if thou abstainest from certain gross injustices and iniquities, thou hast fulfilled the whole Law. It is not in such a saying as that that all the philanthropies and humanities of Christianity lie dormant. Those great beneficent systems and institutions with which Christian feeling has covered this land and so many others are not the outgrowth of a mere negative ambition to abstain from insulting or injuring one’s neighbours. It was Christ’s genius that translated the negatives of religion into the positives. With Him the “thou shalt nots” of the Decalogue became the positive constructive doctrine of the ethics of the Sermon on the Mount."


    This is one reason that many refer to the negative version as the "Silver Rule" rather than the "Golden Rule."

    I'm always still in trouble again

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      A lot of people seem to take for granted that the moral teachings of the NT are great, or that the NT serves as a useful guide to modern morality. However, it seems to me that in addition to some of its good teachings, the NT has a great many failings and shortcomings. I'm reposting here for a more general audience & discussion something I just posted deep in an obscure thread on the Philosophy forum:
      Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
      Moral issues the NT is morally wrong on:
      Slavery,
      How is it wrong that Eph. 6 teaches that masters should treat slaves "in the same way" that it instructs slaves to behave toward masters?

      How is it wrong that Paul urges Philemon to receive the returned runaway Onesimus as a brother, rather than as a slave?


      homosexuality, divorce,
      To what divorce teaching do you object?


      the subordination of women,
      How is it wrong that Luke and Peter explicitly place women and men as ministry equals in Acts 2? How is it wrong that Paul implies Nympha was pastor of the house-church at Laodicea? How is it wrong that Paul honors Phoebe as deacon and leader of the church at Cenchrea, and chose her for the important role of courier of the letter to the church at Rome? How is it wrong that Paul honored Junia as apostle? How is it wrong that Paul instructed husbands and wives to mutually submit to each other? How is it wrong that Paul explicitly rescinded class barriers between men and women?

      marital rape,
      How far into your lower orifice did you have to reach to extract this silly gem?

      eternal punishment,
      It's fairly clear the NT does teach this, and there is no point trying to argue its rectitude with a hardened infidel.

      obedience to authoritarian governments.
      The implication seems to be that it's better to endure the oppression and continue with the work of eternity than to foment "resistance," get many people killed, and neglect the greater purpose.

      -------------


      Moral issues the NT is a bit unclear about:
      Non-violence, polygamy,
      How is it unclear that polygamy is wrong?

      sex before marriage, racial discrimination (as evidenced by the long history of racial discrimination in the Christian countries of USA and South Africa),
      I know I'm asking a lot, but please try to not be a jackass. The bad behavior of "Christian" countries is not the fault of confusion in the NT, it's the fault of ignorance of readers.


      interracial marriage.
      This is not addressed in Scripture, OT or NT, in the modern sense of skin color. It is addressed, mainly in the OT, in the sense of nation of origin, but mainly in so far as that relates to religious affiliation. Believers and unbelievers are of different species and should not mix intimately.

      Moral issues the NT fails to speak to:
      Torture, genocide, war crimes,
      On rare occasions in the OT, God permitted and even commanded genocide and things that today would be called "war crimes," and Jesus, Himself the I AM, never claimed that was an error. We can infer such things are not absolutely ruled out.

      human rights, animal rights, women's rights, abortion, contraceptives.
      The OT says that the righteous man has regard for the life of his beast, and the NT speaks of God caring for the birds of the air. Nevertheless, humans alone bear the Image of God, and the OT explicitly granted to humans the right to use animals for food and clothing, and imposed the duty to slaughter some as sacrifices. We can safely infer they have no "rights."


      I've probably left out several important moral failings of the NT in this off-the-top-of-my-head listing. It's worth noting that while the NT can claim great moral teachings like the Golden Rule, that it's known as the Golden Rule precisely because it has been found in all sorts of societies and philosophies and religious teachings throughout history. I don't dispute that the NT has plenty of good moral teachings. But it also has plenty of bad ones. And, also importantly for anyone trying to base their entire morality on the NT: There are a vast number of moral topics that the NT simply doesn't touch on at all, or on which the NT references only very obscurely and unclearly.
      There are really not many situations that the Golden Rule doesn't cover.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        A note about the Golden Rule. AFAICT in all other cultures it is expressed in the negative form such as can be seen in the Analects of Confucianism: "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself" whereas in Christianity it is expressed in the positive form "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This is an unique approach.
        Listening to wise scriptures, austerity, sacrifice, respectful faith, social welfare, forgiveness, purity of intent, compassion, truth and self-control — are the ten wealth of character (self). O king aim for these, may you be steadfast in these qualities. These are the basis of prosperity and rightful living. These are highest attainable things. All worlds are balanced on dharma, dharma encompasses ways to prosperity as well. O King, dharma is the best quality to have, wealth the medium and desire (kāma) the lowest. Hence, (keeping these in mind), by self-control and by making dharma (right conduct) your main focus, treat others as you treat yourself.

        —Mahābhārata Shānti-Parva 167:9

        http://blog.practicalsanskrit.com/20...-humanity.html

        Treat your inferior as you would wish your superior to treat you.

        -Seneca the Younger

        https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...%20you&f=false


        In fact it is even in the Old Testament:
        You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

        —Leviticus 19:18
        My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          A note about the Golden Rule. AFAICT in all other cultures it is expressed in the negative form such as can be seen in the Analects of Confucianism: "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself" whereas in Christianity it is expressed in the positive form "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This is an unique approach.
          As a browse of the quotations in the wikipedia article would demonstrate, it is not true that a positive version of the Golden rule is unique or original to Christianity.

          "A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated." - Sutrakritanga, 1.11.33, one of the core texts of Jainism, composed 3rd-4th century BC.
          "For one would do for others as one would do for oneself." – Mozi, Chinese philosopher, died ~391 BC.
          "treat others as you treat yourself" - Mahābhārata Shānti-Parva 167:9, Ancient Indian epic poem, composed 9th century to 5th century BC.
          "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." (translation slightly unclear) - The Eloquent Peasant, an ancient Egyptian story from the period 2000-1600 BC.



          Edit: Cross-posted with Pixie it seems... and I missed Seneca the younger, I noticed it as I was browsing but forgot to add it to my posted list.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Moral issues the NT fails to speak to:
            Torture, genocide, war crimes, human rights, animal rights, women's rights, abortion, contraceptives.
            You are joking right? The only reason why you consider these important is because you happened to have been born in a particular culture at a particulate time. If you were born somewhere on the Asian rim 200 years ago these moral ideals probably would have never entered your head. Completely relative, and therefore meaningless as a criticism against NT teachings.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Edit: Cross-posted with Pixie it seems... and I missed Seneca the younger, I noticed it as I was browsing but forgot to add it to my posted list.
              Seneca might not be independent of the NT, as he may have been writing after Paul's letters were written, and may have seen copies of them.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                You are joking right? The only reason why you consider these important is because you happened to have been born in a particular culture at a particulate time. If you were born somewhere on the Asian rim 200 years ago these moral ideals probably would have never entered your head. Completely relative, and therefore meaningless as a criticism against NT teachings.
                One of the claims made about Christian/NT morality is that it provides the moral answers. Given these are all topics in discussions about morality in today's world, any good Christian would naturally like to look to the bible to get clear guidance on them. The fact that the bible is not providing any answers on such topics, means that the claims being made about it as the great provider of moral answers are wrong.

                Furthermore, an omniscience God could have known that such topics would be relevant to today and made sure to include them (and since there are more people alive today than from the 2000 years when the bible was written until now, God seems to be missing out on his chance to educate the majority of people about moral truths). It's not like that would have been hard for the NT writers to comment on these issues clearly because obviously in the ancient world they had torture, genocide, atrocities in wars, abortions, attempts at contraceptives, methods of treatment of animals, ways of treating women etc (as compared to if God had wanted them to include in the NT a ban on computer hacking, which would have been difficult given the language and concepts available at the time).
                Last edited by Starlight; 06-27-2017, 06:28 AM.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  You are joking right? The only reason why you consider these important is because you happened to have been born in a particular culture at a particulate time. If you were born somewhere on the Asian rim 200 years ago these moral ideals probably would have never entered your head.
                  ...because there are no god-driven objective moral standards from which to acquire them.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    One of the claims made about Christian/NT morality is that it provides the moral answers. Given these are all topics in discussions about morality in today's world, any good Christian would naturally like to look to the bible to get clear guidance on them. The fact that the bible is not providing any answers on such topics, means that the claims being made about it as the great provider of moral answers are wrong.
                    Nonsense, why would the Bible deal with animal rights for instance when animal rights are a legal fiction? Animal rights do not exist. But the New Testament teaches us to be loving and gracious, and those character traits will reveal themselves on the way we treat animals - particularly pets. And these characteristics can be applied to a number of your other questions.

                    Furthermore, a omniscience God could have known that such topics would be relevant to today and made sure to include them (and since there are more people alive today than from the 2000 years when the bible was written until now, God seems to be missing out on his chance to educate the majority of people about moral truths). It's not like that would have been hard for the NT writers to comment on these issues clearly because obviously in the ancient world they had torture, genocide, atrocities in wars, abortions, attempts at contraceptives, methods of treatment of animals, ways of treating women etc (as compared to if God had wanted them to include in the NT a ban on computer hacking, which would have been difficult given the language and concepts available at the time).
                    The NT moral teachings, though specific in some areas, are often general and can be applied across cultures. The love of your fellow man, the idea that you go the extra mile to make peace with your neighbor. Forgiving wrongs done to you, the Golden rule, helping the poor, personal self-control, don't be greedy, be honest, don't steal, be truthful, etc... If a culture truly followed these simple mandates they would have heaven on earth. And again, the ethical questions you find important are relatively driven, what relatively ethical questions will be important one hundred years from now? Two hundred years from now? And what you find important is not what every culture on earth today finds important. God would have to had written a million laws,or more, to satisfy any possible eventuality. Your whole premise is silly Star.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      ...because there are no god-driven objective moral standards from which to acquire them.
                      Prove it...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        New Testament morality is worse than Old Testament. In the OT at least the penalty for sin was only death, and not an infinite penalty for a finite "crime".

                        One of the most important moral issues never addressed in the Bible anywhere is domestic violence. Even when Jesus had the opportunity to do so he did not. And yet because of this:

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          And again, the ethical questions you find important are relatively driven, what relatively ethical questions will be important one hundred years from now? Two hundred years from now? And what you find important is not what every culture on earth today finds important. God would have to had written a million laws,or more, to satisfy any possible eventuality. Your whole premise is silly Star.
                          Tell me which of the following topics substantially become no longer morally relevant with the passing of centuries, I'll wait:

                          Torture; conduct in war; abortions; treatment of women (aka women's rights); treatment of animals (aka animal rights); the use of methods to attempt to prevent pregnancy (aka contraceptives); the destruction of entire people groups (aka genocide); setting minimum standards for the treatment of all people in our society to attempt to ensure everyone is treated well (aka human rights).

                          I contend that these topics were all relevant 2000 years ago when the bible was written, that they were relevant 200 years ago, that they are relevant now, and that they will be relevant 200 years in the future. They are not obscure, or ethically relative topics, they are major topics in morality and have always been. The NT's failure to speak clearly on these important moral topics is a serious failing on its part if anyone claims it to be the authoritative moral guidebook. And you are unconvincingly dodging the issue by trying to pretend these aren't important and major moral topics, and haven't always been so, and are just something that current Western society has invented. On the contrary, these topics have always been important ones to people and people groups, and many of them feature in the OT (albeit in ways that aren't complimentary to the bible - e.g. the Israelites committing genocide at God's command and with his blessings; David torturing his captured enemies when those same enemies had conducted themselves in exemplary fashion in war etc).
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                            "The husband cannot be guilty of a rape committed by himself upon his lawful wife, for by their mutual consent and contract the wife hath given up herself in this kind unto her husband"
                            Indeed, and NorrinRadd seems unaware of the historical impact of 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 and other similar passages on Christian societies.

                            1 Cor 7:3-5
                            The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

                            It was only relatively recently (~1970-1990s) that the UK and US legally recognized marital rape as a crime. Even today there are Christians who are convinced the idea of 'marital rape' is nonsensical.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              It was only relatively recently (~1970-1990s) that the UK and US legally recognized marital rape as a crime. Even today there are Christians who are convinced the idea of 'marital rape' is nonsensical.
                              Martin Luther held that a woman who refused to have sex with her husband should either be forced or killed.
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

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