Originally posted by Sparko
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The flaws of NT-based morality
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"Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostChuck, when you actually express a stance on something, instead of just making critical snipes and asking dumb questions, I will respond to you seriously. Until then.. well.. woof."Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostMorality is not about what one prefers, nor is it about obligation, why it matters to the atheist is simply a matter of principle. Apparently christians, or the religious in general, think the only reason for themselves to be morally good persons is if there is an ultimate reward for their behavior. But then again, when you think about it, it is because of such thinking that we had to create gods and ultimate rewards, or punishments, in the first place.
Jesus thought right behavior came from right motivation, from caring about people. How do you produce that kind of thing? I think it's more likely to be produced by inspiring people by good examples and by the love of God than by threatening them. Most of my non-Christian friends care about others also, even though they don't fear God's judgement. I'm not convinced that their actual motivation is all that different from the actual motivations of Christians.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostMorality is not about what one prefers, nor is it about obligation, why it matters to the atheist is simply a matter of principle. Apparently christians, or the religious in general, think the only reason for themselves to be morally good persons is if there is an ultimate reward for their behavior. But then again, when you think about it, it is because of such thinking that we had to create gods and ultimate rewards, or punishments, in the first place.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostYeah, that is the easy way to get out of it. But I wonder how long you will keep making a fool of yourself and act in an unworthy manner.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassmoron View PostYes. Pavlov adopted the same "carrot and stick" approach to train dogs; it's pretty basic. Actual moral principles are instinctive. They're derivatives of self-preservation and procreation and a consequence of natural selection.
Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYou need to understand that he can’t help it, he’s a Christian. They’re like that. Their MO is denigration in lieu of substantive argument; it’s what happens when one’s beliefs are grounded in fantasy.
I am just treating Charles like he does MM and Seer. Maybe a tad exaggerated to make the point. When he starts contributing substantially to a debate I will take him seriously and treat him respectfully. Same with you. You denigrate Christians in the very statement that you accuse us of using denigration in lieu of substantive argument.
Irony much?
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Roy,
A note about a fallacy. You can be assured your opponent is loosing an argument when resorting to use of an ad hominem.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhich atheist's principles Jim? Yours? The Stalinist? The Maoist?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostMorals are not ours seers, they don't belong to us, they are personal behaviors found to be in the best interests of human society. I didn't say anything about Stalin or Mao. There were many immoral religious figures throughout history as well. Morality need have nothing to do with religion, which is why God need have nothing to do with morality.
Which atheist are you speaking of and what principle? Are you speaking just for yourself and your principle? Or are you speaking for a Stalinist? Or a Maoist? They too were atheists, they too had their moral principles.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by hedrick View PostI think the question of the basis for morality is unsolved and possibly unsolvable. But most people seem to be moral because they care about other people, and in general about the consequences of their actions. Someone who lives in fear of being sent to hell if they do the wrong thing is likely to act in a legalistic way, and may well not produce good results for the people around them.
Jesus thought right behavior came from right motivation, from caring about people. How do you produce that kind of thing? I think it's more likely to be produced by inspiring people by good examples and by the love of God than by threatening them. Most of my non-Christian friends care about others also, even though they don't fear God's judgement. I'm not convinced that their actual motivation is all that different from the actual motivations of Christians.
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim you said: Morality is not about what one prefers, nor is it about obligation, why it matters to the atheist is simply a matter of principle.
Which atheist are you speaking of and what principle? Are you speaking just for yourself and your principle? Or are you speaking for a Stalinist? Or a Maoist? They too were atheists, they too had their moral principles.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe moral atheist.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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