"THE" Doctrine of Grace

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Yep. I only wanted to show that gender excludes the typical Calvinist interpretation of this verse that Paul is referring to faith as the gift.

Roger THAT - As a neuter, it excludes all three - salvation, the Faith and Grace... It does sound like their interpretation is some English translations, but when you are going to make that sounds-like a major theological king-pin of your faith, you had BETTER understand the Greek... But I am indeed noticing that they are beginning to look at it some... I know, a small victory, but a mini-step, no?

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

Paul, in Ephesians 2, writes to believers, "when we were dead in sins, [God] quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"

This describes Baptism, and the action of the Holy Spirit therein...
For, "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ..."
And: "Know ye not, brethren, that ye are baptized into Christ's DEATH?..."

That’s fine. The quickening by God may be identified as the baptism of God if you desire. We should not, then, confuse the baptism of God – the quickening – with the rite of human baptism wherein a person publicly declares his submission to God to the world – declares that he has put on Christ. The human baptism would naturally follow the baptism of God.

Nonetheless, it is God who quickens – converts – the unbeliever with the result that they become a believer.

The "whole-hearted and whole-life faithfulness in word and thought and in deed" is not something that those dead in sins will pursue.

Oh they will pursue it alright - Paul himself describes his own pursuit as one knowing the Law of Moses - And how he FAILED, for he DID what he WOULD NOT, and DID NOT that which he WOULD, because after the INNER man he loved God, but he COULD NOT overcome the law working sin in his MEMBERS... And in his agonizing over this, he cried our: "WHO will deliver me from this BODY OF DEATH?"

But THEN, you will recall, after being blinded by Christ on the road to Damascus, Ananias restored Saul's sight, and then gave him the Holy Spirit, baptizing him INTO CHRIST, even INTO HIS DEATH, and BY MEANS of his having been baptized into CHRIST'S DEATH, he was THEN ABLE to overcome the contrary law active in his flesh unto sin... And later, when God allowed a demonic thorn in his flesh, Paul gave us his ACTIONS regarding this thorn: "For I am beating my body black and blue keeping it in subjection"... Which is something that prior to his baptism, he would not have done... Indeed COULD NOT...

We disagree.

It is the pursuit of those whom God has raised from the dead and made alive.

IT comes BEFORE BAPTISM into Christ... Men desire to follow Christ, then deny themselves [REPENT], are BAPTIZED [into Christ's DEATH], THEN they take up their own cross DAILY and FOLLOW HIM...

The Gospel is simple: "Repent and BE baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
It is Baptism that saves, and it does not save without repentance...
Man repents, and in Baptism he is entered into Christ, being Baptized into Christ's death...

I go with Paul on this. By grace you are saved. The quickening of God converts the sinner. Luke writes of this in Acts 13, “when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” God has ordained some to eternal life. God quickens those He has ordained to life. Those quickened by God then believe.

Your desire is to give credit to man for that which God has done and thereby give to man the glory that is God’s.

God requires belief of a person not to gain salvation but to demonstrate the salvation that they have been given "(by grace ye are saved;)" and "we are [God's] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works."

The GRACE by which we are saved is the same Grace by which Paul [Saul] was saved, and by which John the Baptist was NOT saved, which is the Grace of rebirth into Christ's Body in Christ's Baptism... THAT Grace is only prepared for by REPENTANCE, because Christ said: REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED... He did NOT say, BE BAPTIZED AND THEN REPENT... Repentance is the precondition of Salvation... This was prefigured in the OT on ALL occassions, and indeed even by John the Baptist during the incarnation of Christ... "In the wilderness, MAKE STRAIGHT THE ROAD, the Highway of our God!" IF you do NOT, then the Grace of Baptism and the sealing of the Holy Spirit, will be unto your condemnation, IF you are somehow able to obtain it...

Nice splitting of grace from grace. All grace is of God. God extends grace because He wills to do so and not in reaction to anything man does.

By the belief (faith) that manifests itself in the life of the believer, the believer has the assurance of his salvation. Those who are dead in sins exhibit no such belief, have no desire for it, and cannot believe until they are made alive by God.

In the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we find our Life in Christ in our Baptism into Christ's DEATH...
Baptism is the ENTRY POINT of the repentant sinner into the Body of Christ, for we "...are Baptized into Christ..." [Do you need the verse numbers?]

You place your hope in baptism and make man the cause of his salvation. Such goes against that which the Bible teaches.

[
Are we reading the same Bible here???

Yep. The difference is that you have a man-centered view of the Bible and I have a God-centered view of the Bible. For example, you split grace between man and God while I don’t. You attribute to man that which is rightly attributed to God.

[rhutchin]

Earlier Paul had said, “By Grace are ye saved.” He picks up that theme in v8 but now adds through faith. He immediately follows with an emphatic – “this not of you; of God the gift.” Had Paul not added, “through faith,” he would not have had to follow with, “this not of you, of God the gift.”

It seems that you don't understand what you write.

You claim that had Paul not added "through faith" he would not had to follow with "this not of you, of God the gift". However, one of the beauties of Koine Greek is gender. The gender of "this" or "that" (depending on translation; greek = 'touto') does not match the gender of faith.

So what does this mean? It means that there is absolutely 0% chance that 'touto' (this or that) refers to 'pistis' (faith). Therefore, to claim that Paul is referring to 'faith' when he says 'and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God' is patently incorrect. Based on the Greek we know Paul is referring to salvation as the gift from God, not faith.

So I hope...now that you know this...that you will no longer claim that this verse says that faith is a gift from God.

I did not say that τουτο refers to faith. Read what I said, “Had Paul not added, “through faith,” he would not have had to follow with, “this not of you, of God the gift.” If Paul had merely re[eated that which he had said earlier – By grace are you saved – there would have been no need for further explanation. Because Paul adds, “through faith,” he must explain what he means.

The word, τουτο, being neutral is taken to refer to the preceding phrase “by grace are ye saved through faith,” in its entirety. Paul says that there is nothing here, not grace, not salvation, not faith, that is of man. It is all the gift of God.

Since you are so well acquainted with the Greek, why not explain - given Paul's use of the neutral τουτο - how Paul, as you seem to claim, splits faith off from grace/salvation as the gift of God. Let's see you perform your magic. Show us your understanding.

[Phat8594]

If Paul had merely re[eated that which he had said earlier – By grace are you saved – there would have been no need for further explanation. Because Paul adds, “through faith,” he must explain what he means.

You are just plain wrong.

The word, τουτο, being neutral is taken to refer to the preceding phrase “by grace are ye saved through faith,” in its entirety. Paul says that there is nothing here, not grace, not salvation, not faith, that is of man. It is all the gift of God.

Wrong again. This not of yourselves refers to salvation. See, the verse says that you are saved by grace through faith. So what is not of yourselves? Salvation.

Since you are so well acquainted with the Greek, why not explain - given Paul's use of the neutral τουτο - how Paul, as you seem to claim, splits faith off from grace/salvation as the gift of God. Let's see you perform your magic. Show us your understanding.

He doesn't split it off, and I do not claim that he does. touto does not match in gender to either grace or faith. Therefore, Paul is not talking about either of these. So what is he referring to? Salvation in general. And this makes sense when Paul says, "not a result of works." No magic here...just good ol' koine Greek. The fact that you continue with interpretation, despite being corrected, just totally boggles my mind.

It sometimes seems like you care more about backing up your theology than understanding what the Bible actually says.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

You place your hope in baptism and make man the cause of his salvation.

Man does not baptize, but only the Ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ... Baptism OUTSIDE this Body is indeed as you say, a baptism of men...

BUT... My Brother...

WHEN YOU SAY that the Baptism which occurs within the Holy Body of Christ is MAN's baptism, you make of the Body of Christ Who is Her Head but a mere human organizational enterprise... And you deny the Faith of the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church which proclaims in the Confession of the Faith from the Creed: "And I believe in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church..." The Body of Christ on earth has been and is an article of the Faith for Christians from the beginnings...

You see, for YOU baptism is but a man-made public boast in God, and a human pledge... For us, it is Rebirth, the creation of a New Creature in Christ... Where man has by it within him the Holy Spirit of God Who IS God... THAT is why we have the power to overcome sin, whereas you cower in fear from the sins you cannot overcome and even go so far as to claim that the Apostle Paul was a SLAVE in his body to the DOING of sin...

Such is the distortion of Scripture that claiming one's baptism for one's self as a human-only action leaves you trapped within...

Baptism is the Action of God's Grace which He bestows through His Holy Body, the Church, of Which He is the Head...

Whatever it is that you are proclaiming, it is not this...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

You have a man-centered view of the Bible
and I have a God-centered view of the Bible.
For example, you split grace between man and God
while I don’t.
You attribute to man that which is rightly attributed to God.

Then you believe that the Baptism into Christ GIVEN BY THE APOSTLES is ONLY attributable to MAN, yes???

I will tell you this, Hutch... I can imagine nothing more absurd for a Christian to believe than this...

For Baptism is an action of Christ THROUGH His Apostles...

Did Ananias GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT to Saul/Paul???

Yes or No... Answer me...

Now the answer is Yes, and the question is: HOW???

He Baptized Saul and laid hands upon him, thereby IMPARTING the Holy Spirit INTO Him...

So was Ananias the One doing this?

Or was God doing this?

And the answer is YES...

Welcome to the Mystery of the Body of Christ Who is Her Head on earth...

This is the Power, indeed the Grace, that you do not have when you baptize your baptism of public display by men...

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

Then you believe that the Baptism into Christ GIVEN BY THE APOSTLES is ONLY attributable to MAN, yes???

Water baptism is a rite in which a person engages after God saves them and gives glory to God for that which God has done in his life.

Did Ananias GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT to Saul/Paul???

Yes or No... Answer me...

Now the answer is Yes, and the question is: HOW???

He Baptized Saul and laid hands upon him, thereby IMPARTING the Holy Spirit INTO Him...

So was Ananias the One doing this?

Or was God doing this?

And the answer is YES...

Welcome to the Mystery of the Body of Christ Who is Her Head on earth...

This is the Power, indeed the Grace, that you do not have when you baptize your baptism of public display by men...

God gives the Holy Spirit to whom He wills. God may use an agent, as in Paul’s case, or during the preaching of the gospel as with Cornelius. In every case, God chooses when and how to impart His spirit to those He saves.

[rhutchin]

Paul had merely re[eated that which he had said earlier – By grace are you saved – there would have been no need for further explanation. Because Paul adds, “through faith,” he must explain what he means.

You are just plain wrong.

How are we to know since you are unable to explain why this is so?

The word, τουτο, being neutral is taken to refer to the preceding phrase “by grace are ye saved through faith,” in its entirety. Paul says that there is nothing here, not grace, not salvation, not faith, that is of man. It is all the gift of God.

Wrong again. This not of yourselves refers to salvation. See, the verse says that you are saved by grace through faith. So what is not of yourselves? Salvation.

As τουτο, refers to the entire phrase, “by grace are ye saved through faith,”so the entire phrase describes the gift of God. If, as you say, salvation is not of yourselves, then the faith through which it comes cannot be of yourselves. If faith were within the person absent any action by God to put it there, then the salvation which comes through that faith would necessarily be conditioned on it being appropriated by the person and thereby of the person.

Since you are so well acquainted with the Greek, why not explain - given Paul's use of the neutral τουτο - how Paul, as you seem to claim, splits faith off from grace/salvation as the gift of God. Let's see you perform your magic. Show us your understanding.

He doesn't split it off, and I do not claim that he does. touto does not match in gender to either grace or faith. Therefore, Paul is not talking about either of these. So what is he referring to? Salvation in general. And this makes sense when Paul says, "not a result of works." No magic here...just good ol' koine Greek. The fact that you continue with interpretation, despite being corrected, just totally boggles my mind.

Salvation, in general?? Hardly. Paul writes to the Ephesian believers. He speaks to that salvation each has experienced and explains that salvation that they have received. Nothing "in general" about that salvation. Perhaps, if you could actually speak to the Greek text, your argument might become persuasive.

It sometimes seems like you care more about backing up your theology than understanding what the Bible actually says.

Given your propensity to make statements without support, you give no indication that you understand what the Bible says.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Then you believe that the Baptism into Christ GIVEN BY THE APOSTLES is ONLY attributable to MAN, yes???

Water baptism is a rite in which a person engages after God saves them and gives glory to God for that which God has done in his life.

Nice theological evasion... Let's try it again:

The WATER BAPTISM given by the Apostles under Christ...
Is it of Man, or is it of God?
Answer me!

Here is the answer you are trying to foist off on me:

God gives the Holy Spirit to whom He wills.
God may use an agent, as in Paul’s case,
or during the preaching of the gospel as with Cornelius.
In every case, God chooses when and how to impart His spirit to those He saves.

Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him,
Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said,
John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us,
who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; who am I to stand against God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying,
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto Life.

So WHAT IS this repentance unto Life???

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,
which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

THESE are the WORDS which the ANGEL promised to CORNELIUS "whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."

You see, when Peter says: "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto Life..." he is fulfilling the angel's prophesy: "whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved," because he THEN SAID: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?"

Peter had NEVER, prior to this, Baptized a Gentile...
BUT...
AFTER this, he did indeed baptize repentant Gentiles...

The expression "which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we" refers to Pentecost, and the descent of the Holy Spirit that inaugurated the power of the Apostles, and in this the Gentiles were also designated by God to ALSO be Baptized... The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles with Cornelius was not what brought salvation to them and all their houses, but Baptism WAS, because THAT is what Peter THEN gave them...

Baptism CLEARLY is THE means of the CHURCH to GIVE the Holy Spirit to those seeking ENTRY into the Body of Christ through REPENTANCE... This is why he says: "Repentance unto Life..." Therefore "Can any man forbid water?" This WATER BAPTISM BY CHRIST'S APOSTLES IS Christ's Baptism with the Holy Spirit...

You simply cannot close your eyes to this...

It is NOT, as you insist, MAN's GIFT TO GOD... (some measley human rite publicizing one's own self-perceived salvation and thereby glorifying God)
Christ was NOT Baptized in the River Jordan so that man could give Him Glory as a GIFT...
His Baptism was exactly the reverse: HIS GIFT TO MANKIND - Salvation: "That ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS BE FULFILLED"

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

As τουτο, refers to the entire phrase, “by grace are ye saved through faith,”

So far, so good...

so the entire phrase describes the gift of God.

Not so fast...

The phrase AS A WHOLE describes the Gift of God...

IF you wish to do a grammatical dissection, you dissect the perfect passive participle "sesosmenoi" is the direct Gift, and it has two modifiers: 1- By [the means of] Grace and 2- Through [the agency of] the Faith." Now it happens to be true that both these modifiers are from God, for God gave us His Faith once, for all, to the Apostles, and through them, to us... But THE Faith means the CHRISTIAN Faith which is the Gift, and not, as you are wrongly exegeting, anyone's personal faith in Christ... Had it meant that, it would have omitted the article... THE Faith is something very specific and discipled by the Ekklesia - It does NOT mean ANYONE's PERSONAL SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE of having some BELIEFS ABOUT Christ... It is instead the Faith given once for all - BUT NOT TO ALL, TAKE CAREFUL NOTICE - but TO the APOSTLES, and ONLY to the Apostles... It is NOT GIVEN TO ALL, as you are wrongfully insisting...

If, as you say, salvation is not of yourselves, then the faith through which it comes cannot be of yourselves.

You are right - It came from Christ to the Apostles to us...

If faith were within the person absent any action by God to put it there,
then the salvation which comes through that faith would necessarily be conditioned on
it being appropriated by the person and thereby of the person.

Again exactly correct - The Faith given once FOR ALL to the Apostles is then GIVEN BY THE APOSTLES to ALL who are willing to appropriate it... For: "The Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are TAKING IT by FORCE..."

You see, God PLACES the Faith of Christ INTO ALL who come to him in the discipleship of the Apostles...
God tells you this when he says TO THE APOSTLES:
"Go ye forth. Disciple ALL the Nations, Baptizing them into the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...
Teaching them to be carefully attending all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."

THIS IS HOW God has placed the Faith of Christ into all mankind...
It is the ONLY way that He has done so...
The Apostolic Church DISCIPLES and BAPTIZES and TEACHES ALL the Nations...
ALL other anecdotal salvations are EXCEPTIONS to this RULE...

Salvation is OF THE LORD!

Glory too God!

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

How are we to know since you are unable to explain why this is so?

How are we to know what you are writing is correct?

(Actually I know it to be totally incorrect, because it goes basic Greek grammar)

As τουτο, refers to the entire phrase, “by grace are ye saved through faith,”so the entire phrase describes the gift of God. If, as you say, salvation is not of yourselves, then the faith through which it comes cannot be of yourselves. If faith were within the person absent any action by God to put it there, then the salvation which comes through that faith would necessarily be conditioned on it being appropriated by the person and thereby of the person.

Actually it doesn't. The Greek explicitly shows us that Paul is not referring to either grace or faith. If he meant to do that, he would have had to use a totally different construction

See, both grace and faith have articles in front of them. Therefore, Paul is not connecting the two; he sees them as separate entities. Therefore, we see more than one object at hand. If Paul meant to refer to all of these, he would have had to say "these are not of yourselves". We know this from the Granville Sharp rule. Rather he says "this is not of yourselves".... and thus he completely excludes faith and grace from his thought. If he wanted to refer to them, he would have had to use "these" rather than "this". So both grammatical construction and gender show us that Paul is not referring to grace and faith. I am so glad God in His providence gave us those definite articles so that there would be no question...

So what is on Paul's mind? Salvation. And how does Paul define salvation? He defines it in verses 4-7. And even from the beginning of the Chapter, we can see that Salvation is on Pauls mind....not faith.

Its about who we were, and who we have become. You can see how Paul parrallels his thoughts to bring the reader to remember who they were and who they are now. Who they are now is because of the work that God has done in them us.

We see in v1-3 the work of man, and in v4-7 the work of God. So that's the focus of Paul...its not about faith.....its about what God has done for us (which we see in 4-7) and we see that as a direct contrast to what man has done (v.1-3). The parallel in 1 & 5 is used to highlight this fact, lest we forget what God has done for us. That salvation is all of God and not of man.

Given your propensity to make statements without support, you give no indication that you understand what the Bible says.

Thanks

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Eph 2:8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
th gar xariti este seswsmenoi dia thv pistewv kai touto ouk ex umwn yeou to dwron

I keep looking at this sentence in Greek... I erred thinking that grace had no article in the Byzantine text... But that is minor...

The Greek literally reads "For by [the/His] Grace ye ARE, having been saved through [the/His] Faith, and this not from yourselves, of God the Gift.

Phat is correct in that the touto CANNOT mean EITHER Faith OR Grace OR both, because it is first of all singular, ruling out both, and as well neuter, ruling out either... So then what in the Greek construction CAN it mean? Which term in the sentence that is a noun has no gender? And there is no such noun... There is only the VERB, ESTE, "Ye EXIST" and its modifier, "Having Been Saved"... The "YE" is the only term that is NOT [yet, at least] genderized... It's modifier is genderized, the perfect passive participle "Having Been Saved"... The temptation is to split the two verbal actions, which normally one would think form a single action, into two parts, making it say: For ye EXIST by Grace, having been saved through Faith... And while this is theologically true enough, I a not so sure of its grammatical necessity...

Here is a note (15) from a helpful essay on the subject:

15
Chrysostom, Homilies on I Corinthians 12.2 (PG 61 98; NPNF vol. 12, 65). See also
Chrysostom’s comment on Ephesians 2:8, “for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not
of yourselves; it is the gift of God”: “Neither is faith, he means, ‘of ourselves.’ Because had He
not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For ‘how,’ he says, ‘shall they
believe, unless they hear?’ (Rom. 10:14). So the work of faith itself is not our own.” Homilies
on Ephesians 4.2 (PG 62 33; NPNF vol. 13, 67). http://orthodox-stl.org/grace_freewill.html

So it seems that Chrysostom agrees with Hutch that "Neither is faith of ourselves, for God established it on earth..." And yet he disagrees with Hutch in that the appropriation of it [eg the effectual calling] IS of ourselves in an important way - [We cannot choose it directly in all cases, but we must DESIRE to be ABLE to choose it... Even when we are unable... And God will make good (fulfill) our desire... But without it, without our desire to choose good, He will not make good its fruition in us...] For what he is describing is not individual appropriation of faith, but the EXISTENCE of the Faith of Christ on earth as it is preached by the Church Christ established on earth...

So I am going to bail out for awhile and read Chrysostom on Ephesians and try to digest it better... As an Orthodox Christian, one disagrees with Chrysostom on Paul very seldom, and then only with several other well accepted Patristic authors in agreement... The article on Grace and free will is a worthwhile read: http://orthodox-stl.org/grace_freewill.html

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Ver. 8. “For by grace,” saith he “have ye been saved.”
In order then that the greatness of the benefits bestowed may not raise thee too high,
observe how he brings thee down: “by grace ye have been saved,” saith he,
“Through faith;”

Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work,

This clearly means that Chrysostom understood the Faith to be a WORK...
But then look at his next sentence:

and yet again cancels it, and adds, “And that not of ourselves.”
He means neither is the faith “of ourselves.”
Because had He not come, had He not called us,
how had we been able to believe?
For “how,” saith he, “shall they believe, unless they hear?” (Rom. x. 14.)
So that the work of the faith itself is not our own.
“It is the gift,” said he, “of God,” it is “not of works.”

So that whereas our free will works DO the Faith unto our salvation, they do not themselves obtain it, but it is a Gift of God... Without them, there IS NO salvation, yet with them, we still have no salvation, unless God grant it as a gift, which He does, but only to those who DO the works of Faith... And by this, I should think, he means repentance, because there are the works of repentance unto Baptism, and of Baptism unto maturity in the Faith [these are works of repentance and service in the Body of Christ], and of maturity in the Faith.] [which are the works of God Himself in us unto others - As Paul said: "It is no longer I who act, but Christ in me..."

Was faith then, you will say, enough to save us? No; but God, saith he, hath required this, lest He should save us, barren and without work at all. His expression is, that faith saveth, but it is because God so willeth, that faith saveth. Since, how, tell me, doth faith save, without works? This itself is the gift of God.
Ver. 9. “That no man should glory.”
That he may excite in us proper feeling
68
touching this gift of grace. “What then?” saith a man, “Hath He Himself hindered our being justified by works?” By no means. But no one, he saith, is justified by works, in order that the grace and loving-kindness of God may be shown. He did not reject us as having works, but as abandoned of works He hath saved us by grace; so that no man henceforth may have whereof to boast. And then, lest when thou hearest that the whole work is accomplished not of works but by faith, thou shouldest become idle, observe how he continues,
Ver. 10. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.”
Observe the words he uses. He here alludes to the regeneration, which is in reality a second creation. We have been brought from non-existence into being. As to what we were before, that is, the old man, we are dead. What we are now become, before, we were not. Truly then is this work a creation, yea, and more noble than the first; for from that one, we have our being; but from this last, we have, over and above, our well being.
“For good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.”

What the issues later boil down to is the foreknowledge of God awaiting the free-will choices of man in His Providence from that foreknowledge...

All are free to follow Him...

Many are called...

Few are chosen...

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

The Greek explicitly shows us that Paul is not referring to either grace or faith. If he meant to do that, he would have had to use a totally different construction.

We both agree on that point. Move on.

I went further and said that τουτο refers to the entire phrase, “By grace you are saved through faith.” Thus, the entire phrase is the gift of God (even though salvation is the primary focus). Because the entire phrase is the gift, there is no way to separate grace from salvation from faith and say that one is the gift and one is not. All three parts must be understood as part of the gift of God.

If that is a problem for you, then explain how the Greek text allows a different conclusion.

See, both grace and faith have articles in front of them. Therefore, Paul is not connecting the two; he sees them as separate entities. Therefore, we see more than one object at hand. If Paul meant to refer to all of these, he would have had to say "these are not of yourselves". We know this from the Granville Sharp rule. Rather he says "this is not of yourselves".... and thus he completely excludes faith and grace from his thought. If he wanted to refer to them, he would have had to use "these" rather than "this". So both grammatical construction and gender show us that Paul is not referring to grace and faith. I am so glad God in His providence gave us those definite articles so that there would be no question...

The Granville Sharp rule cannot be applied to this verse for obvious reasons. Go back and read up on the rule.

Τουτο refers to the entire phrase and not to the individual components of the phrase. At the same time, τουτο collects all the components of the phrase under one umbrella so that one cannot be separated from another with respect to the later identifier, “gift.” Your analysis is bogus.

So what is on Paul's mind? Salvation. And how does Paul define salvation? He defines it in verses 4-7. And even from the beginning of the Chapter, we can see that Salvation is on Pauls mind....not faith.

Specifically, Paul is dealing with the process whereby people comes to salvation given their initial state of being dead in sins.

Its about who we were, and who we have become. You can see how Paul parallels his thoughts to bring the reader to remember who they were and who they are now. Who they are now is because of the work that God has done in them us.

Agreed.

We see in v1-3 the work of man, and in v4-7 the work of God. So that's the focus of Paul...its not about faith.....its about what God has done for us (which we see in 4-7) and we see that as a direct contrast to what man has done (v.1-3). The parallel in 1 & 5 is used to highlight this fact, lest we forget what God has done for us. That salvation is all of God and not of man.

Agreed.

Nonetheless, Paul still wants to make a point. In v5 he writes, “by grace ye are saved.” He then picks this up in v8 adding “through faith.” Because of the earlier reference, we read this as “by grace ye are saved - through faith.” When he then follows with “και τουτο” he refers to the preceding phrase in its entirety.

[rhutchin]

What the issues later boil down to is the foreknowledge of God awaiting the free-will choices of man in His Providence from that foreknowledge...

All are free to follow Him...

Many are called...

Few are chosen...

Yet, God also has free will and can, from among those who reject salvation, freely choose some for salvation and then take such action as is necessary to bring them to salvation while leaving those not chosen to face the consequences of their choice.