How few is "few?"

[gtoktruth]

"Many are called, but few are chosen" "Few there are that find the narrow gate."

What are we talking about here? 10%? 1%? Lower? Higher?

What has me concerned is how many have told me to meditate over Psalm 91. Well, I did, and came to

"A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand."

So, I went to a prophet, and asked if "few" could be as low as one in ten, or eleven, thousand? He was deeply grieved and angered, and said "Yes."

Anyone else getting anything from God about this?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"Many are called, but few are chosen" "Few there are that find the narrow gate."

What are we talking about here? 10%? 1%? Lower? Higher?

What has me concerned is how many have told me to meditate over Psalm 91. Well, I did, and came to

"A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand."

So, I went to a prophet, and asked if "few" could be as low as one in ten, or eleven, thousand? He was deeply grieved and angered, and said "Yes."

Anyone else getting anything from God about this?

The Old Testament has Lot bartering with God for the salvation of Sodom and Gomorrah - God started out with 50 as the minimum needed for their salvation, and Lot got Him down to just a few, and then, there being not even this few, God destroyed them all, for Lot was the only one... Not knowing the size of their number, but guessing, say, 500,000, and the number of 1 in 500,000 not enough for the saving from destruction, we can take, perhaps God's number 50 in 500,000, and that is 1 in 10,000... But that is to save an exceedingly sinful population:

Eze_16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom,
pride,
fulness of bread, and
abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters,
neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (no help for the poor)

Of course, this is in the days of yore, Old Testment Times...

The narrow gate of the New Testament requires the same kind of life of self-sacrifice as did that of the Prophets... We see their greatest, John the Baptist, and what his life was like, and in Hebrews, Paul describes the whole panorama of them, "...of whom the world was not worthy...", and they lived wretchedly, in holes in the ground, naked, persecuted, tormented, sawn in half, and on and on...

And like these, the New Testament holy ones undergo the same straited lives of suffering and unflinching devotion to God, for we see Paul describing them:

1Co 4:9-13
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked,
and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

So that even with the rise of the Christian Faith, the number that find the narrow way and the straited Gate are few indeed, yet far, far more than in OT times... Yet still very few - Paul himself, in this passage, is entreating his flock:

1Co 4:15-16
For though ye have ten thousand teachers in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye becoming imitators of me.

Now we know that "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much", even droughts and rains, yet here we have an astonishing statement by Paul:

"I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU."

And what are the conditions of this begetting? Being IN Christ Jesus, acting THROUGH the Gospel, and being SET FORTH as an Apostle, which requires, as he says, becoming an IMITATOR of the Apostolic Way of Life, which is narrow and straited, appointed unto death...

Few are these, though there be ten thousand teachers...

The Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers, are the "brood mares" of the Faith - They look like human train wrecks and live in deprivation and wretchedness, except they are joyous and beget the faithful... My avatar is a picture of one of them... And without them, the world would be destroyed... As Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed...

They are always present, in every generation, having been discipled in the narrow way, and guarding and begetting in the Faith, in the power of their Spiritual lives... AFTER their deaths, we call them Saints, of Holy Ones of God... Their deeds are the stuff of Legends... And they care not a whit for legends, but for souls and persons and God...

Arsenios

[Chappie]

I believe the narrow gate to be Christ.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I believe the narrow gate to be Christ.

c
Because strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.

Christ is straited indeed, which is narrow...

But what is overlooked is that the word for strait used of the Gate is NOT the word for narrow of the Way...

The word for the Way is tethlemmini, from the verb thlibo, meaning:

Definition

to press (as grapes), press hard upon
a compressed way
narrow straitened, contracted
metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

And this describes what must come to pass in us who walk in this Way, that we should enter... We get trimmed and compressed and concentrated in troubles and afflictions, pressed hard upon, just as Paul describes:

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked,
and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Whatchathink, Chapster?

Was Paul telling it like it is?

Or was he jes' a-blowin' smokers'n'sech?

[rhutchin]

"Many are called, but few are chosen" "Few there are that find the narrow gate."

What are we talking about here? 10%? 1%? Lower? Higher?

What has me concerned is how many have told me to meditate over Psalm 91. Well, I did, and came to

"A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand."

So, I went to a prophet, and asked if "few" could be as low as one in ten, or eleven, thousand? He was deeply grieved and angered, and said "Yes."

Anyone else getting anything from God about this?

Few is a number less than all. Not all will be saved.

[gtoktruth]

So, the greasy grace gospel deceives many? In the USA, i understand maybe 80% think that they qualify for heaven. What ought we preach, in answer to the question, "What must we do to be saved?" Are the many that are deceived and wrongly think they are saved to be left alone, or confronted by evangelists?

Arsenios,

Thanks for your reminder that the saved are the hope, fathers, of the unsaved. That it is through the prayers and suffering of the saved that others find the narrow gate, and squeeze through. George Muller, one of the more successful believers in history was known through his prayer journal to have prayed many into salvation. They were carefully chosen, and some were not saved until years after Muller had passed on. But all that got on his prayer list, so I recall, were eventually saved.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So, the gr-easy grace gospel deceives many?

In terms of salvation in this life on this earth, yes...

In the USA, i understand maybe 80% think that they qualify for heaven. What ought we preach, in answer to the question, "What must we do to be saved?" Are the many that are deceived and wrongly think they are saved to be left alone, or confronted by evangelists?

Confrontations save none, normally...

Arsenios,

Thanks for your reminder that the saved are the hope, fathers, of the unsaved. That it is through the prayers and suffering of the saved that others find the narrow gate, and squeeze through. George Muller, one of the more successful believers in history was known through his prayer journal to have prayed many into salvation. They were carefully chosen, and some were not saved until years after Muller had passed on. But all that got on his prayer list, so I recall, were eventually saved.

I cannot speak for George Muller... I have never heard of him... I can tell you that no Orthodox Christian boasts in his prayers for salvation of another... We weep for, and pray for, and hope for, our brothers... And for ourselves, for that matter... But nobody "squeezes through" the Gate, or squeezes others through it - THAT line of thinking is deluded... It is the disciple who is squeezed and afflicted and constricted, not to be squeezed through a narrow gate, Christ, but unto the perfection of Faith that is by repentance from sin and self-love and conceit and carnality... ALL of it must go, for Christ has no part with sin, and maturity in Christ is by the overcoming of sin, and takes time and effort and Grace...

But I do have another point that is important - There are two regenerations - The first is by Baptism in this life on this earth, and the second is the resurrection of ALL the living and the dead at the Great and Dread Last Judgement... In terms of the last one, it is our works that determine our place, with the sheep or with the goats, and not our belief systems or stuff like that... Indeed, it is the condition of our soul that will either welcome or flee from the energy of that regeneration... The lovers of good, Christian or not, will welcome Christ then, and the doers of iniquity will only tolerate the outer darkness - They shall judge themselves... Even as they are judged... For ONLY truth will matter then, whereas in this world, lies matter a lot for most... Salvation in this life is in our partaking of the divine Energies of God, and operates supra-naturally... Most Christians live decent lives and live naturally for the most part... Some slip into un-natural-ness of desires and deeds... But it is the narrow and straited way that attains the kingdom of heaven in this life... "The violent take it by violence..."

Arsenios

[gtoktruth]

So, Arsenios, I gather that you do not subscribe to the occasional interpretation of the camel and the eye of a needle. You know, where the reference is to a gate so small that the camel must be unloaded to get through?

And, while I understand and agree about boasting, I once asked God how it was that I was saved, and He replied that the prayers of my Grandmother had prevailed. He also told me that His justice was served in sending persons to Hell in that each of us is given the opportunity to effect the salvation of "30, 60, or 100" others. When we turn away, to ignorance (Hosea 3:6), or luke-warmness, (Rev 3:14, ff), these potential converts likely are lost. Like a watchman who sleeps on their watch, allowing the enemy to slip through and kill those they were watching over, this is a capital crime.

But I did not miss your excellent point that the squeezing is equally or more severe after one has passed through the gate. Those saved because they intended to "persevere in doing good, seeking after glory, honor, and immortality," stay saved. Those who got saved to have a nice life, backslide and are lost.

Nor did I miss your other excellent point, that the true "by this we know" is spiritual faith with confirming works. Works alone do not mean much, as I understand things. What matters are works that involve hearing God's voice, with resultant faith, acted on, with a confirming, basically miraculous outcome. His sheep have this experience so often, that they "know His voice." To others who think they believe, He says, "I never knew you."

And finally, may i magnify your important point about delusion. How few have rightly divided delusion and deception? When God's severity comes to the place where He sends His Spirit of delusion, the times are indeed perilous. These are no times to dabble in spiritual things, but "with even more (than all!) diligence, make sure of your calling and election." (2 Peter 1:10.)

With perhaps, in America and first world countries today, less than one in ten thousand actually saved, everyone ought to be "working out their salvation with fear and trembling." People have been to Hell and returned with awful reports. What agument is there justifying business as usual?

[rhutchin]

So, the greasy grace gospel deceives many? In the USA, i understand maybe 80% think that they qualify for heaven. What ought we preach, in answer to the question, "What must we do to be saved?" Are the many that are deceived and wrongly think they are saved to be left alone, or confronted by evangelists?

I don't think the problem is in the preaching of the gospel. I think it lies in the desire of those who hear it to do what that gospel says. There are people who want to be forgiven for their sins but don't necessarily want to give up those sins. So rather than greasy grace gospel, we have the greasy integration of the gospel into one's life in that people mishandle (on purpose) that gospel that they hear preached.

[Sparko]

Heaven sure will be lonely with only you up there Gtoktruth. Your "god" must be pretty weak to save only a small number.

Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

No, not everyone will be saved, but the number of saved in heaven will be great. Why else do you think the New Jerusalem will be so large?

[hedrick]

In the version in Luke, Jesus seems to avoid the question. He is asked "will only a few be saved" but rather than saying yes or no, says "make sure *you* are." I can't help wondering whether "few are chosen" is really intended to be a numerical estimate, so much as a warning.

[gtoktruth]

Heaven sure will be lonely with only you up there Gtoktruth. Your "god" must be pretty weak to save only a small number.

Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

No, not everyone will be saved, but the number of saved in heaven will be great. Why else do you think the New Jerusalem will be so large?

Yes, somewhere we are told that ten thousand ten thousands (100 million) are in heaven, And then some, maybe twenty million more. Since over the recorded history of mankind we may be looking at 12 billion people, that would make it one in a hundred. With only one in ten thousand in wicked parts of the world, I suspect that as many as one in ten get chosen in other places.

As to "calling on the name of the Lord," I suspect that this is one of those "tear this temple down, and I will rebuild it in three days" statements. It doesn't mean what you think it means. When I asked God what it meant, in the context of "Really? So few?" He said that "the name of the Lord" was not crying out His name, Yeshua, (although He did say that was so very helpful that the evil one got His name changed to "Jesus," which hardly does any good at all.)
Then, He asked me what the name of the Holy Spirit was? I could think of no answer. "Yet," He continued, "I command you to baptize in the name of the Spirit!"

"To call on My name," He said, "is to know my commandments, and to be diligent learning to keep them. Now, look around. How many believers do you know who are investing substantially in a curriculum of study that follows My commandments? Say, are investing heavily in a curriculum such as that offered by Bill Gothard, under the tutelage of a coach?"

Suddenly, the one in ten thousand looks generous. Truth be told, I have heard of a few, but they do not hold up under close scrutiny. "And," He went on, "a liar who calls on My name will not be believed. But that is why I had it written, 'Anyone who says that they know the Lord, but does not keep His commandments (of Christ, not the Law) is a liar and the truth is not in him.' People have to keep My commanfments, and be my disciple indeed, before they qualify to have the truth in them, and not be a liar. No liar is saved, no matter what comes out of their mouth.

As to the "Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart," He said that He discerns who these are, in honesty, by their attitude towards authority. If they hold Him accountable for authoritative actions, and look to express their "thy will be done" by submitting to existing worldly authorities, and trying to get under the watchful care of spiritual authorities, then He believes their "Jesus is Lord" talk. Again, very rare, and when found, often thought to be and usually is a cult. In cults, Yeshua is not held accountable for the leader's actions, which are instead taken at face value. Like legalists who take commands or the law at face value, instead of using them as jumping off points for "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Deut 28:1), such cult members are not accounted as truly believing what they say, when they say that Jesus is Lord. If, in fact they do say that. The truthful who say that Yeshua is Lord, who truly believe in their hearts that He is present and controlling natural or spiritual authorities, pray in effective faith for the leader's heart to be in God's hands, and for that leader to think and act according to their prayers for Him, insofar as those prayers are in the will of God. This is learned through conversations with God Himself. Not a cult, in this case. But surely salvation.

[Sparko]

Yes, somewhere we are told that ten thousand ten thousands (100 million) are in heaven, And then some, maybe twenty million more. Since over the recorded history of mankind we may be looking at 12 billion people, that would make it one in a hundred. With only one in ten thousand in wicked parts of the world, I suspect that as many as one in ten get chosen in other places.

As to "calling on the name of the Lord," I suspect that this is one of those "tear this temple down, and I will rebuild it in three days" statements. It doesn't mean what you think it means. When I asked God what it meant, in the context of "Really? So few?" He said that "the name of the Lord" was not crying out His name, Yeshua, (although He did say that was so very helpful that the evil one got His name changed to "Jesus," which hardly does any good at all.)
Then, He asked me what the name of the Holy Spirit was? I could think of no answer. "Yet," He continued, "I command you to baptize in the name of the Spirit!"

Really? You are going with THAT? LOL.

In the name of .... means "by the authority of"

Like "stop in the name of the law!"

It doesn't mean the personal name of the holy spirit.



Yah right, you and God had a conversation about this.

"To call on My name," He said, "is to know my commandments, and to be diligent learning to keep them. Now, look around. How many believers do you know who are investing substantially in a curriculum of study that follows My commandments? Say, are investing heavily in a curriculum such as that offered by Bill Gothard, under the tutelage of a coach?"

So now God is marketing studies and curriculum?

[One Bad Pig]

I cannot speak for George Muller... I have never heard of him... I can tell you that no Orthodox Christian boasts in his prayers for salvation of another... We weep for, and pray for, and hope for, our brothers...

From what I know of George Muller, he would agree with you. It is people who discovered his prayer journal after he died who boast about his prayers. He spent himself providing for others who had nothing, when he was entirely dependent on donations unasked for.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

From what I know of George Muller, he would agree with you. It is people who discovered his prayer journal after he died who boast about his prayers. He spent himself providing for others who had nothing, when he was entirely dependent on donations unasked for.

Thank-you... Sounds like one of God's own...

Arsenios