3 groups exist in Mt c.25:32-46: sheep,goats,my brethren

[LetsObeyChrist]

We're on quite a merry-go-round here. You keep quoting the same Scriptures as if no one had responded to them. That being the case, I'm getting off now.

Debate 101, always blame the opponent for ending the debate.

Have a nice day; I will, I won.

[Sparko]

Debate 101, always blame the opponent for ending the debate.

Have a nice day; I will, I won.

no, debate 101: keep repeating yourself till people walk away in disgust, then claim victory.

[RBerman]

Debate 101, always blame the opponent for ending the debate.

Have a nice day; I will, I won.

I am happy to accept "blame" for ending our debate. May God bless you in your studies of Scripture.

[theblueprint_Ni]

Debate 101, always blame the opponent for ending the debate.

Have a nice day; I will, I won.

If there's something I've learned about RB, it's that he doesn't "debate". He looks for a productive exchange, and to his credit this exchanged ceased being productive, so he bowed out.

[LetsObeyChrist]

If there's something I've learned about RB, it's that he doesn't "debate". He looks for a productive exchange, and to his credit this exchanged ceased being productive, so he bowed out.

I didn't come wanting to debate, but to share and discuss. Feel free to do so.

[ttruscott]

As an intro to myself and my interest in pre-conceptin existence theology (herein called PCE), I'd like to offer a different take on this phrase from the original post. (I have skipped from the first post to the last page without reading all posts to keep things hot in my mind but I will go over everyone's posts later.)

THEREFORE this context has three classes of mankind, "My brethren" = the righteous, "the goats" = the unrighteous and "the sheep" the intermediate or "middling people.".

In PCE we consider that our pre-earth existence in Sheol before earth was created to be the only place where we had free will, uncoerced by anything but especially uncoerced by GOD's glory and power which HE kept hidden.

This free will choice separated all of HIS creation into three groups:
1. those who rejected HIS invitation to join HIM in Holy Loving communion forever thereby becoming HIS eternal enemies and

2. those who accepted HIS reality and bowed to HIS claim to majesty by faith and hope, at which time GOD, by HIS own free will, chose (elected ) them all to be conformed to the image of HIS Son as members of HIS Church for eternity.

But these elect were tested when HE called for them to "come out from among" HIS eternal enemies in their hearts so HE could damn them and some elect failed the test, rebelled against HIS desire to damnHIS enemies and so fell into the sin of idolatry.

2A. Thus we have those who stayed faithful to their original true free will choice to bow to HIM separated from

2B. HIS unfaithful sinful elect, now enslaved to sin and in need of redenmption, sanctification and a holiness.

To conform to the OP, the coloquial names for these groups would be:
1. the goats, unredeemable reprobate, the damned
2A. the eternally faithful Church, the elect angels, holy by free will choice
2B. the sinful elect, either in their redeemed state ofr still unredeemed, saved by grace by Christ's death on the cross, sanctified by the grace of the Holy Spirit, predestined from before the foundation of the world to heaven.

I have noticed that the scholarhsip here is higher than other forums I have visited so I know many holes and contradictions have arisen in your minds about this but, if you bear with me, holes will be filled, resolutions to contradictions will be attempted and assuming I have no idea how to answer your opposition may be premature, :)

Peace to all,

Ted

PS I wish I coud see how to "preview" my posts, sigh.

[David Hayward]

Welcome to you, ttruscott.

As an intro to myself and my interest in pre-conceptin existence theology (herein called PCE), I'd like to offer a different take on this phrase from the original post.

PCE is new to me, I'll keep watching and pondering.

PS I wish I coud see how to "preview" my posts, sigh.

You must be using the default <Quick Reply> box, which is pretty basic. But when you are in the <Quick Reply> box, you will see a <New Reply> button at bottom right; click on it to get a WYSIWYG preview with the editing box underneath. At bottom right below that are <Preview Post>, which refreshes the preview to reflect any changes made in the editing box, and <Submit Reply>.

If by any chance you don't then get WYSIWYG, go to Settings, General Settings (Click here), scroll down to Miscellaneous options, tick <Standard Editor - Extra formatting controls>, then scroll to the very bottom and save changes.

Hope this helps,

David

[RBerman]

As an intro to myself and my interest in pre-conceptin existence theology (herein called PCE), I'd like to offer a different take on this phrase from the original post. (I have skipped from the first post to the last page without reading all posts to keep things hot in my mind but I will go over everyone's posts later.) In PCE we consider that our pre-earth existence in Sheol before earth was created to be the only place where we had free will, uncoerced by anything but especially uncoerced by GOD's glory and power which HE kept hidden. This free will choice separated all of HIS creation into three groups:
1. those who rejected HIS invitation to join HIM in Holy Loving communion forever thereby becoming HIS eternal enemies and

2. those who accepted HIS reality and bowed to HIS claim to majesty by faith and hope, at which time GOD, by HIS own free will, chose (elected ) them all to be conformed to the image of HIS Son as members of HIS Church for eternity.

But these elect were tested when HE called for them to "come out from among" HIS eternal enemies in their hearts so HE could damn them and some elect failed the test, rebelled against HIS desire to damnHIS enemies and so fell into the sin of idolatry.

2A. Thus we have those who stayed faithful to their original true free will choice to bow to HIM separated from

2B. HIS unfaithful sinful elect, now enslaved to sin and in need of redenmption, sanctification and a holiness.

To conform to the OP, the coloquial names for these groups would be:
1. the goats, unredeemable reprobate, the damned
2A. the eternally faithful Church, the elect angels, holy by free will choice
2B. the sinful elect, either in their redeemed state ofr still unredeemed, saved by grace by Christ's death on the cross, sanctified by the grace of the Holy Spirit, predestined from before the foundation of the world to heaven.

I have noticed that the scholarhsip here is higher than other forums I have visited so I know many holes and contradictions have arisen in your minds about this but, if you bear with me, holes will be filled, resolutions to contradictions will be attempted and assuming I have no idea how to answer your opposition may be premature, :)

That's an interesting and elaborate system you describe. Where does Scripture speak in those terms? Certainly the term "free will" is not used in the Bible remotely in the way that we use it in discussions of soteriology and divine sovereignty. Nor am I acquainted with Scriptures which mention Sheol in relation to pre-existence.

[ttruscott]

Free will is not mentioned? <aghast!> :)

Well no, but neither is :
Trinity omniscience omnipotence omnipresence incarnation
rapture

nor
the diety of the messiah
the teaching that the OT was NOT the be all and end all
man as god?

nor Adamic sin before the NT.

<shrug>

As for the scriptures I use for support, they will come to light as I answer posts and questions... and for: "Scriptures which mention Sheol in relation to pre-existence,"

how would you ever notice them in our current disposition to understand every verse from the pov of creation of the soul on earth?

Look at:

Psalm 9:17 -
KJV - The wicked shall be turned into hell ...
NASV - The wicked shall return to Sheol ...
Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) - Yea, back to Hades must the wicked

Ummm, it begs the question, "How can we return somewhere where we've never been, eh?"
A KJV bias against returning shown here?

And: IF all returns are to Sheol:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it.

1 Peter 2:25 - For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

:)

Peace, Ted

[Sparko]

well sheol is the grave. so returning to the grave is just saying returning to the earth, or back to dust. You know, like what God made Adam from?

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

It doesn't say anything about preexistence.

[ttruscott]

well sheol is the grave. so returning to the grave is just saying returning to the earth, or back to dust. You know, like what God made Adam from?

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

It doesn't say anything about preexistence.

Very good...except this verse refers particularly to the spirit returning to GOD:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it.

Now it either means return as plainly read or it must be interpreted by a theology, neh? :) My theological interps is that it means return to GOD from where GOD sent it to earth...

Peace to you,

Ted

[RBerman]

Very good...except this verse refers particularly to the spirit returning to GOD:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it.

Now it either means return as plainly read or it must be interpreted by a theology, neh? :) My theological interps is that it means return to GOD from where GOD sent it to earth...

Well, that's sort of true. God breathed life into Adam (Genesis 2:7). That's not quite the same as supposing that the life/spirit/soul of man had some independent existence prior to God instilling it into the body, though. Or that Sheol is the place where that independent existence occured. You have to be careful with poetic passages in Scripture; plenty of screwy things can be deduced from them if taken literally. For instance, does God have wings?

[Sparko]

Very good...except this verse refers particularly to the spirit returning to GOD:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it.

Now it either means return as plainly read or it must be interpreted by a theology, neh? :) My theological interps is that it means return to GOD from where GOD sent it to earth...

Peace to you,

Ted

It doesn't say that the spirit existed alone before it was put in a body. God creates our spirit and body at the same time. and even if you were right, it doesn't say anything about the spirit coming from Sheol, or that God lives in Sheol (which would have to be the case if the spirit returns to God and came from Sheol)

Sheol is just the grave. the ground, the earth from which we came from. and as rberman said, it is poetic language. We are not literally made out of dust.