When Suffering Has Adverse Affects On Believers

[Scrawly]

I have been thinking about intense, chronic suffering experienced by Christian’s and the affects it has on their disposition toward God. We all know that suffering to some degree helps us as Christian’s if we properly respond to it, but what about those who deal with chronic illnesses literally every single day of their lives? I have personally experienced chronic suffering for a few years and I can say that it has not made me a better person nor more Christ like, in fact on my “bad days” I see God as bordering on sadistic if not down right evil, and think how I could ever worship such a Being that allows His children to go through such suffering. However, on my better-clear-thinking days I can kind of reflect upon what God may be doing – sanctification, helping me cultivate an eternal perspective, annihilating any self-righteousness I may have, etc. Although, I have an awfully difficult time seeing how a Christian experiencing worse suffering than me, each and every day with no reprieve, how such suffering can have any good impact whatsoever. I would think, based upon my experience that a Christian in such a condition would almost become enraged at other Christian’s going on about how good and wonderful and deserving God is.

I sort of rambled here, but any thoughtful responses are welcome.

[Phat8594]

I have been thinking about intense, chronic suffering experienced by Christian’s and the affects it has on their disposition toward God. We all know that suffering to some degree helps us as Christian’s if we properly respond to it, but what about those who deal with chronic illnesses literally every single day of their lives? I have personally experienced chronic suffering for a few years and I can say that it has not made me a better person nor more Christ like, in fact on my “bad days” I see God as bordering on sadistic if not down right evil, and think how I could ever worship such a Being that allows His children to go through such suffering. However, on my better-clear-thinking days I can kind of reflect upon what God may be doing – sanctification, helping me cultivate an eternal perspective, annihilating any self-righteousness I may have, etc. Although, I have an awfully difficult time seeing how a Christian experiencing worse suffering than me, each and every day with no reprieve, how such suffering can have any good impact whatsoever. I would think, based upon my experience that a Christian in such a condition would almost become enraged at other Christian’s going on about how good and wonderful and deserving God is.

I am sorry to hear that. Suffering is by no means fun, but it is a reminder that we live in a fallen world. Of course, I do not envy your situation. I do encourage you, however, to keep pressing on. In any case, I think it is important to remember that our weakness reminds of us both the hope of the life to come, and of our need for God.

When I read your post I thought of two passages that, hopefully, will offer you encouragement, brother:

2 Corinthians 12

5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses— 6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,[a] a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

and

Romans 8:

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

[Scrawly]

I am sorry to hear that. Suffering is by no means fun, but it is a reminder that we live in a fallen world. Of course, I do not envy your situation. I do encourage you, however, to keep pressing on. In any case, I think it is important to remember that our weakness reminds of us both the hope of the life to come, and of our need for God.

When I read your post I thought of two passages that, hopefully, will offer you encouragement, brother:

2 Corinthians 12


and

Romans 8:

Thank-you and I agree with you. However, I can attest to the fact that on days where, say I barely slept for a week straight and my cystitis is causing me to urinate every 30min 24/7, my response to the above would be somewhere along the lines of "Whatever". This is my concern because I would also think that if a believer experienced this sort of suffering every single day of their life it would eventually harden their heart towards God and instead of rejoicing in the presence of God on that great day they would rather depart from Him due to His insensitivity towards them here on earth. In other words, they would grow to sort of despise fellowship with God because of their prolonged suffering. They wouldn't be able to bring themselves to worship God or praise Him - their suffering would have adverse affects.

[Cybelle Hawke]

Whenever I visit hospitals, hospices, homes, etc and on occasions where, in the function of an elder, people in deep pain and tremendous suffering, expect me to say something (because I am that woman of the church.....) I refer and sometimes completely read psalm 38.

I also would like to express that during these visits, I have experienced tremendous faith in these people. Many times they have inspired and strengthened me instead of the other way around!

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I have been thinking about intense, chronic suffering experienced by Christians and the affects it has on their disposition toward God.

Here is a story of suffering that went on for some 18 years in one of the early Martyrs of Christ:
(celebrated in the Church today, January 23rd)

THE PRIESTLY-MARTYR CLEMENT, BISHOP OF ANCYRA

Clement was born in the year 258 A.D. in the city of Ancyra of a pagan father and a Christian mother.
His devout mother Euphrosyne prophesised that her son would die a martyr's death
and then she departed this world when Clement was twelve years old.
Her friend Sophia took Clement to her home as a son and assisted in rearing him in the Christian spirit.

Clement was so famous because of his virtuous living that he was elected bishop of Ancyra at the age of twenty.
In his young years, he attained the wisdom of a mature adult,
and by great restraint he tamed and conquered his body.
Clement fed on bread and vegetables only and did not eat anything butchered or bloody.

During the reign of Diocletian, he was tortured so horribly
"as no one ever, since the beginning of the world."
He spent twenty-eight years in difficulties and in dungeons.
Eleven different torturers tormented and tortured him.
At one time, when they struck him in the face, spat upon him and broke his teeth,
he cried out to Domentian, his torturer:
"You do me great honor, O Domentian, for you are not torturing me,
because even the mouth of my Lord Jesus Christ was also beaten and struck in the face
and behold, I , the unworthy, now became worthy of that!"

When Clement was brought to Rome before Emperor Diocletian,
the emperor placed various weapons on one side for torture
and on the other side gifts, such as decorations [medals],
clothing and money; all that the emperor could bestow,
and then he told Clement to choose.

The martyr of Christ glanced with scorn at all the emperor's gifts
and chose the instruments of torture.
Clement was indescribably tortured:
piece by piece they removed the flesh from his body
so that the white bones showed beneath the flesh.
Finally, he was beheaded by a soldier in Ancyra while, as bishop,
he was celebrating the Divine Liturgy in church in the year 312 A.D.

The miracles of St. Clement are without number.

I know a man with whom I spoke just after he had returned from the doctor's office with a diagnosis of throat cancer. The doctor described the end of the line in dying a death from this disease, and it was utterly terrifying to the man, slowly choking to death over endless months of suffering... nd he was distraught and angry the day he found out, and I listened to him... I called him a few days later, and he had come around the first step, which is the step Christ took in the Garden: "Not MY will, but THY will be done..." And he resigned himself to his fate, but his problem was exacerbated by having to take care of his invalid wife... He was prayed for... I ran into him again a year later - He had not been expected to live that long, and I did not recognize the voice that answered the phone... It was him... His wife had passed, and he had lived through his throat cancer, but the radiation had damaged his voice box... He was still recovering... I have not seen him since... Thankfulness to God for illness and pain and suffering is not easy to arrive at... Acceptance of one's condition is the first step, and then unceasing prayer...

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner..."
"Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me..."
"Lord have Mercy..."

The first prayer is the full version, and can be repeated throughout the day, never leaving one's lips, just under the breath... After some weeks of this, the prayer will become so engrained in you that it will be repeated even while you are sleeping, and even while having conversations, for when you pause from speaking, you will "hear" it and then can continue in it... You can pray it even up to the very moment of departure from this world... It is a wonderful asset, and an indescribable weapon in the spiritual warfare in one's own soul, for it confesses Christ and seeks His help... It is the weapon of martyrs, and the blessing of one's enemies...

Try to think of yourself as deserving much worse than you have suffered so far, and thank God for permitting you this small amount of suffering in place of what you deserve, and glorify God for His mercy, for we are to suffer IF we follow Christ, and undeserved suffering is much more beneficial than being punished for crimes committed... Illness and sickness are just hard to see as benefits, but ASK and ye shall receive... Ask our Lord for His mercy constantly, and I daresay you will find His Peace that is beyond human understanding...

God bless you, my Brother...
Remember...
Every pain is a reminder to be praying...
So is every fear...
Indeed, the world reminds us...


Arsenios

[Teluog]

I can honestly say that the duration and intensity of the suffering I have and still go through has led to less santification in recent times because I just can't stand it and don't really care anymore. The worst part, for me at least, is that my issues have mostly revolved around relationships and friendships and things like that....which are right at the heart of the Christian lifestyle, especially the Greatest Commandments to love God and neighbour. It just dawned on me recently that I actually do not care about anyone, or myself, because whatever caring capacity I had has been smushed by being around so many terrible people most of my life. And all the prayer and self-help and philosophizing etc. hasn't done squat to undo this.

It questions your faith when you are unable to even fulfill the commandment to love your neighbour, especially when God appears to not be helping in any way. So now my care for God continues to dwindle away.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I actually do not care about anyone, or myself, because whatever caring capacity I had has been smushed by being around so many terrible people most of my life.

It is hard, in one's suffering, to join with God's allowance of suffering in one's self...
It is hard to see one's self as deserving of such suffering...
It is hard thereby to thank God for one's suffering...

I will pray for you, my brother...

A priest I know tells me that whenever he is in pain, he thanks God for it fervently, knowing he deserves much worse...
And he prays steadily in thanksgiving and beseeching God's mercy...
And the demons inflicting his pains tend to flee from their incitement to such fervent prayer...

He says that it is kind of cheating...
And then there was Job...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

It questions your faith when you are unable to even fulfill the commandment to love your neighbour, especially when God appears to not be helping in any way. So now my care for God continues to dwindle away.

You do not love your neighbor...
You have judged your neighbor...
They are just "so many terrible people"

So that your pains are perhaps given that you will call out to God for His Great mercy unceasingly...
Because you have cut yourself off from your neighbor...
And God is seeking you...

Use what respite you find to pray, and to find ways to do good for your neighbor...

You will find some respite...

Arsenios

[Teluog]

George . . . . English please?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

It just dawned on me recently that I actually do not care about anyone, or myself, because whatever caring capacity I had has been smushed by being around so many terrible people most of my life. And all the prayer and self-help and philosophizing etc. hasn't done squat to undo this.

You have in this only embittered yourself against your neighbor and now yourself, that's all...
God wants you to love your enemies...
And bless them that curse you...

So He seems to be calling you directly to Himself, by your long term chronic pain, in which you cannot blame "terrible people" for your unhappiness... He is calling you to yourself,, yes? And THERE you need to side with God, rather than judging Him, or all those "terrible people", and pulling back from all that makes this life worthwhile...

I have a good friend in similar circumstances... Nobody wants to be around him, and he is lonely, and is always proving how other people are bad in one way or another... And his condition has been going on for some 10-15 years now... Chronic pain is what the Wise Thief on the Cross had... And the other thief as well... Unto death... One saved, one condemned... One siding with Jesus, one siding against Him...

Arsenios

[theblueprint_Ni]

I can honestly say that the duration and intensity of the suffering I have and still go through has led to less santification in recent times because I just can't stand it and don't really care anymore. The worst part, for me at least, is that my issues have mostly revolved around relationships and friendships and things like that....which are right at the heart of the Christian lifestyle, especially the Greatest Commandments to love God and neighbour. It just dawned on me recently that I actually do not care about anyone, or myself, because whatever caring capacity I had has been smushed by being around so many terrible people most of my life. And all the prayer and self-help and philosophizing etc. hasn't done squat to undo this.

It questions your faith when you are unable to even fulfill the commandment to love your neighbour, especially when God appears to not be helping in any way. So now my care for God continues to dwindle away.

You must have experienced a great deal of hardship to get to this point. At least you're honest about where your heart is, that speaks for something. I know a guy who grew up in an incestuous house, being sodomized by his older brother and surrounded by other sexual perversions. It didn't help that his church was a citadel of sin and deception, whose bishop was a dictator and whose son, who was also an associate pastor, was a practicing homosexual behind closed doors. Not one of his family members or church leaders were people he could trust. It caused a lot of problems for him, but he got saved about five years ago and is one of my best friends. He still struggles with many things but he is a growing Christian person who does experience victory.

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles, both you and Scrawly. I hope that there are some things or people in your lives that can give you some form of comfort and encouragement.

[Scrawly]

Whenever I visit hospitals, hospices, homes, etc and on occasions where, in the function of an elder, people in deep pain and tremendous suffering, expect me to say something (because I am that woman of the church.....) I refer and sometimes completely read psalm 38.

I also would like to express that during these visits, I have experienced tremendous faith in these people. Many times they have inspired and strengthened me instead of the other way around!

I think that for most people who are experiencing tremendous suffering with death around the corner feel that exercising faith is the best option because stating that God doesn't exist at that point would completely destroy them and rob them of any hope.

[Scrawly]

Here is a story of suffering that went on for some 18 years in one of the early Martyrs of Christ:
(celebrated in the Church today, January 23rd)

THE PRIESTLY-MARTYR CLEMENT, BISHOP OF ANCYRA

Clement was born in the year 258 A.D. in the city of Ancyra of a pagan father and a Christian mother.
His devout mother Euphrosyne prophesised that her son would die a martyr's death
and then she departed this world when Clement was twelve years old.
Her friend Sophia took Clement to her home as a son and assisted in rearing him in the Christian spirit.

Clement was so famous because of his virtuous living that he was elected bishop of Ancyra at the age of twenty.
In his young years, he attained the wisdom of a mature adult,
and by great restraint he tamed and conquered his body.
Clement fed on bread and vegetables only and did not eat anything butchered or bloody.

During the reign of Diocletian, he was tortured so horribly
"as no one ever, since the beginning of the world."
He spent twenty-eight years in difficulties and in dungeons.
Eleven different torturers tormented and tortured him.
At one time, when they struck him in the face, spat upon him and broke his teeth,
he cried out to Domentian, his torturer:
"You do me great honor, O Domentian, for you are not torturing me,
because even the mouth of my Lord Jesus Christ was also beaten and struck in the face
and behold, I , the unworthy, now became worthy of that!"

When Clement was brought to Rome before Emperor Diocletian,
the emperor placed various weapons on one side for torture
and on the other side gifts, such as decorations [medals],
clothing and money; all that the emperor could bestow,
and then he told Clement to choose.

The martyr of Christ glanced with scorn at all the emperor's gifts
and chose the instruments of torture.
Clement was indescribably tortured:
piece by piece they removed the flesh from his body
so that the white bones showed beneath the flesh.
Finally, he was beheaded by a soldier in Ancyra while, as bishop,
he was celebrating the Divine Liturgy in church in the year 312 A.D.

The miracles of St. Clement are without number.

I know a man with whom I spoke just after he had returned from the doctor's office with a diagnosis of throat cancer. The doctor described the end of the line in dying a death from this disease, and it was utterly terrifying to the man, slowly choking to death over endless months of suffering... nd he was distraught and angry the day he found out, and I listened to him... I called him a few days later, and he had come around the first step, which is the step Christ took in the Garden: "Not MY will, but THY will be done..." And he resigned himself to his fate, but his problem was exacerbated by having to take care of his invalid wife... He was prayed for... I ran into him again a year later - He had not been expected to live that long, and I did not recognize the voice that answered the phone... It was him... His wife had passed, and he had lived through his throat cancer, but the radiation had damaged his voice box... He was still recovering... I have not seen him since... Thankfulness to God for illness and pain and suffering is not easy to arrive at... Acceptance of one's condition is the first step, and then unceasing prayer...

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner..."
"Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me..."
"Lord have Mercy..."

The first prayer is the full version, and can be repeated throughout the day, never leaving one's lips, just under the breath... After some weeks of this, the prayer will become so engrained in you that it will be repeated even while you are sleeping, and even while having conversations, for when you pause from speaking, you will "hear" it and then can continue in it... You can pray it even up to the very moment of departure from this world... It is a wonderful asset, and an indescribable weapon in the spiritual warfare in one's own soul, for it confesses Christ and seeks His help... It is the weapon of martyrs, and the blessing of one's enemies...

Try to think of yourself as deserving much worse than you have suffered so far, and thank God for permitting you this small amount of suffering in place of what you deserve, and glorify God for His mercy, for we are to suffer IF we follow Christ, and undeserved suffering is much more beneficial than being punished for crimes committed... Illness and sickness are just hard to see as benefits, but ASK and ye shall receive... Ask our Lord for His mercy constantly, and I daresay you will find His Peace that is beyond human understanding...

God bless you, my Brother...
Remember...
Every pain is a reminder to be praying...
So is every fear...
Indeed, the world reminds us...


Arsenios

Thanks for the story. The bolded is the difficult part for me because it seems that if we accept the former than the latter seems pointless. If I was to accept my illness and pray to God regarding that illness and He continues to do nothing, well, that would just make God seem cold and distant. If I was to accept my illness and pray to God that He grants me the ability to "fellowship" with Him despite my illness, well, that would just make God seem kind of cruel. I don't know, I have an awfully difficult time taking the position that "Hey God i'm suffering, but if this gives you more glory than suffering I will". It sounds a bit romantic on my part but how does that make God appear?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Acceptance of one's condition is the first step, and then unceasing prayer...

Thanks for the story. The bolded is the difficult part for me because it seems that if we accept the former than the latter seems pointless. If I was to accept my illness and pray to God regarding that illness and He continues to do nothing, well, that would just make God seem cold and distant. If I was to accept my illness and pray to God that He grants me the ability to "fellowship" with Him despite my illness, well, that would just make God seem kind of cruel. I don't know, I have an awfully difficult time taking the position that "Hey God i'm suffering, but if this gives you more glory than suffering I will". It sounds a bit romantic on my part but how does that make God appear?

Look - Christ suffered and died on the cross in great agony... We are to follow Him... We are not to pray for him to take away our suffering, but instead to have MERCY on us... He said: "IN THE WORLD you WILL FIND tribulation, but the Peace I give passes human understanding..." THAT is what you want, the Peace of Christ WTHIN the tribulation in the world...

1Pe 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called:
because Christ also suffered for us,
leaving us an example,
that ye should follow his steps:

Do a Biblical Word Study on "suffer"...
Without suffering there is no faith...
Paul [I think] even said: "He who has suffered has stopped sinning..."

I was given unimaginable suffering for my first 36 years, and in my effort and failure to overcome it, I found God not even believing in Him... I despaired of life itself, for it was not worthwhile to me, and ALL the people I loved I had thrown off in my rage to heal a sick and twisted soul... I did not even think myself to be courageous or anything else - I was just dumbfounded at my soul's condition, which I could not fix or heal... ALL my dreams died... And when, at the end, i finally just gave up, I was not even bitter - I simply had given it my best and failed, and there was no where else to look for answers... And after a few days of accepting my imminent end of life, and after a few of the temptations this brings, God came that first Christmas Eve, and answered ALL my questions, and I thought it was just my SELF... [It is a big story, so I'll stop] But without this great struggle in pain of loss of all meaning, I would not have met God... Had I just accepted my wounded soul and sought to satisfy it and not heal it, thereby feeding my demons, I could have had a 'normal' life... But my life is anything but normal... Yet it is normal to me... So go figure... But EVERYTHING I had seen as a curse ended up being a blessing, and the blessings curses... I can only tell you that things are NOT what they seem to be - Indeed they are the opposite... Suffering is a huge blessing, IF we receive it, and often even if we do not...

One of the elders battled the demon of fornication for some 8 years, and finally just resolved that he would not be able to defeat it, and was going to have to keep fighting it for the rest of his life as a permanent condition of his struggle... At which point, the demon appeared, and he grabbed it, and as he hung on to it, it disappeared, never to return, and he had won...

Suffering is caused by demons, but is permitted by God Who loves us, for our benefit...

I can only tell you that this is the truth... I bear witness to it... I attest it...

And I cannot expect you to believe it...

God bless you in your struggles...

Arsenios

[One Bad Pig]

I can honestly say that the duration and intensity of the suffering I have and still go through has led to less santification in recent times because I just can't stand it and don't really care anymore. The worst part, for me at least, is that my issues have mostly revolved around relationships and friendships and things like that....which are right at the heart of the Christian lifestyle, especially the Greatest Commandments to love God and neighbour. It just dawned on me recently that I actually do not care about anyone, or myself, because whatever caring capacity I had has been smushed by being around so many terrible people most of my life. And all the prayer and self-help and philosophizing etc. hasn't done squat to undo this.

It seems that you at least still care about caring, so there's hope for you yet. You're absolutely right that relationships are at the heart of the Christian lifestyle. As Metropolitan Jonah said at the Lenten singles retreat I attended a couple years ago, there's nothing more difficult than living the Christian life as a single, because we don't have the support system of a family or monastic community. You're left with relying on God, which is less tangible and therefore harder. I try to keep in mind that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose - especially when things aren't going well. Here are a couple songs that helped me out when I got fired from my job a few years ago, and I was stuck having a pity party on me for a year and a half: Devotion - by the Newsboys, and God Will Lift Up Your Head by Jars of Clay. While looking for the second one, I came across another good song by them - The Eleventh Hour. Maybe they'll help you a bit.

It questions your faith when you are unable to even fulfill the commandment to love your neighbour, especially when God appears to not be helping in any way. So now my care for God continues to dwindle away.

I fall so far short of loving my neighbor it's not funny. And I'm pretty sure God's helped me most when I was most oblivious to that help. Lastly, I don't think it's the case that your care for God is dwindling, but it's hanging in the balance. Most often, rather than going away, love turns to hate. You're far from the first to have questioned God. The Psalms are shockingly full of instances where the psalmist is doing so.