One Chance for a Clean Start

[nrajeff]

when I say "Christians believe xyz" I am generally speaking of the orthodox Christian doctrines/teachings. So while not all Christians might believe that, or maybe not every one who claims to be Christians believes it, it is not necessary to point that out, since I am speaking of something that orthodox Christianity teaches.

So the qualifiers would be that in your opinion, the current iteration of orthodox Christianity brands all LDS people as non-Christians?

If you phrase it that way, it leaves room for my response to be, free of animosity, that I agree or disagree with your opinion, whichever the case may be. I can live with that.

[nrajeff]

I have to say, I am really proud of Jeff right now. I thank you for doing this thread. I think it's an excellent idea to discuss these issues. I mentioned to JB that we should put up some sort of agreement for us to sign. Then we can really start to have fun.

Thank you.

[JB]

Yes, I agree with that.

Agreed. After all, the Boy Scout Oath talks about doing one's best to do one's duty, so promising to do one's best seems feasible and good.

OK

Realizing that I am human, I don't see myself always acting in a way that all others will see as being in conformance. And as for "...I will with gladness conduct myself...." ---honestly, I can't see myself living up to that one.

Oh, I think I am as able as anyone here. I just question how able any of us is to meet your admirably high goals at the present time. But if everyone manages to be somewhere between my "low"goals and your high ones, I have a lot of faith that this forum will be a much better place.

That seems more or less fair. Let's strike out the words "with gladness"; they're pretty inconsequential for our purposes here. And I've definitely been giving some thought to the issue of adjudicating how well people who disagree are living up to the pledge, because that is a thorny issue at times. Do you have any suggestions on how we could work on that? I'm thinking that, if we do have a lasting disagreement over whether something's in keeping with the spirit of the pledge, we could simply appeal to the community at large. And as for the issue you and Sparko have been discussing here, that's another important issue. One way to go would be to simply regard the "you're not Christians" thing as a non-insult and fair game to be used sparingly and pretty much ignored by the other side (and that goes for both ways). We're probably never going to reach a real resolution on the Christian status of either Latter-day Saints in general or Chalcedonians in general, I surmise, so my suggestion here would be to try to maintain our respective opinions, dialogue as best as we can in spite of them, and stay polite without using those opinions to bludgeon one another.

Your thoughts, Jeff? I think it's essential that we take your input into consideration here.

[Sparko]

So the qualifiers would be that in your opinion, the current iteration of orthodox Christianity brands all LDS people as non-Christians?

If you phrase it that way, it leaves room for my response to be, free of animosity, that I agree or disagree with your opinion, whichever the case may be. I can live with that.

tell you what, just preface, in your mind "in your opinion" to all of my posts if you want.

[Cow Poke]

So maybe we should express such assertions as being our own personal opinion. That prevents the "You don't speak for all Christians" response from even being necessary.

I tried this and you mocked me!

(I'm kidding, Jeff)

[nrajeff]

I tried this and you mocked me!

(I'm kidding, Jeff)

Actually, that is what inspired me to mention the suggestion here. So the credit goes to you.

[Cow Poke]

Actually, that is what inspired me to mention the suggestion here. So the credit goes to you.

[Raphael]

You mean like this? IMHO Sparko is a drunken reprobate who scarpered with all my bacon.

[Brown Cat]

scarpered?

[Raphael]

scarpered?

scarper
verb (Brit. slang) run away, flee, disappear, go, depart, clear off (informal), beat it (slang), make off, abscond, decamp, take flight, hook it (slang), run for it, slope off, cut and run (informal), beat a hasty retreat, do a bunk (Brit. slang), scram (informal), take yourself off, skedaddle (informal), vamoose (slang, chiefly U.S.), make yourself scarce (informal), take to your heels I've never seen anyone scarper so fast.

Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002

[Sparko]

You mean like this? IMHO Sparko is a drunken reprobate who scarpered with all my bacon.

That's all true.

[Cow Poke]

I don't get it -- is this issue dead?

[Brown Cat]

It's quiet.... Too quiet

[nrajeff]

I don't get it -- is this issue dead?

You mean the bacon-scarping issue? Or the "Hoping to see everyone pledge to refrain from insults and mockery" issue?

I have a response to JB's latest post:

That seems more or less fair. Let's strike out the words "with gladness"; they're pretty inconsequential for our purposes here. And I've definitely been giving some thought to the issue of adjudicating how well people who disagree are living up to the pledge, because that is a thorny issue at times. Do you have any suggestions on how we could work on that?

---Not yet.

I'm thinking that, if we do have a lasting disagreement over whether something's in keeping with the spirit of the pledge, we could simply appeal to the community at large.

--That might or might not work, depending on the makeup of the community. But I don't have a better suggestion yet.

And as for the issue you and Sparko have been discussing here, that's another important issue. One way to go would be to simply regard the "you're not Christians" thing as a non-insult and fair game to be used sparingly and pretty much ignored by the other side (and that goes for both ways). We're probably never going to reach a real resolution on the Christian status of either Latter-day Saints in general or Chalcedonians in general, I surmise, so my suggestion here would be to try to maintain our respective opinions, dialogue as best as we can in spite of them, and stay polite without using those opinions to bludgeon one another.

---Then all we can do is hope that no one gets offended by what is said about their beliefs or church? To some people, being told "You're not a Christian" is an egregious insult, and fighting words worse than telling a man "You're not a real man." If we can't figure out how to say "I disagree with your beliefs" in a less-insulting way than "You're not a real Christian," then maybe things won't improve here after all.

[Sparko]

You mean the bacon-scarping issue? Or the "Hoping to see everyone pledge to refrain from insults and mockery" issue?

I have a response to JB's latest post:


---Not yet.


--That might or might not work, depending on the makeup of the community. But I don't have a better suggestion yet.


---Then all we can do is hope that no one gets offended by what is said about their beliefs or church? To some people, being told "You're not a Christian" is an egregious insult, and fighting words worse than telling a man "You're not a real man." If we can't figure out how to say "I disagree with your beliefs" in a less-insulting way than "You're not a real Christian," then maybe things won't improve here after all.

Would you be upset if I told you that you were not a Muslim?