One Chance for a Clean Start

[Cow Poke]

I think you caught Jeff at the wrong time, X. I have been posting with him for years, and I find him funny, and logical, and patient. But his patience has ran thin the last few days. I know exactly what he is fed up with and sick of seeing and taking. I have also gotten (and get) fed up at times, but I have made myself a promise to bear with it and practice the attribute of forbearance and patience more than I have in the past.

I really do respect you, OC, for hanging in there - I know it has got to be hard.

I also know that one of the things that really upsets Jeff is the lack of respect that Jo and Frank get. Try to read Frank's stuff from a "disinterested third party" perspective, OC -- it's just the same "I'm spiritual and you're not - I know everything and you don't" stuff over and over. And Jo is on this anti-Christianity crusade where she still can't keep orthodox and Orthodox straight, and keeps repeating the same things over and over. It appears to us (or to me, anyway) that she seems to think that MORE WORDS make up for lack of message, and she just keeps typing and typing, invariably saying something that is "easy pickins".

Stepping out of my " 'anti' persona" for just a moment, if I were on your side, I think I would have a team meeting, so to speak, with "my guys" to talk about strategies in "defending the faith". Jo claims she got an email from somebody endorsing her anti-Christiandom "strategy".... would you have done that? Would you think it's a good idea?

You seem to be, whether you like it or not, the "team leader" here for the Mormon side. As much as I disagree with you, you have the greatest potential for a "ok, let's slow down and talk about this" session. Now, when I've said something like this before, you have pushed back (understandably so) with a "well, why don't you do that with YOUR side" type of response. But it's not MY faith that is under examination here, OC. It's YOURS! And, I THINK I have learned - recently - that we have a difference of perspective on "faith". I don't mean your PERSONAL faith in Mormonism -- that is without question. I don't KNOW anybody who displays a greater faith in what they believe. I mean your doctrines, your leader, your Book of Mormon... THOSE things are under examination here. Not Christianity. This is the MORMON forum.

As you are aware, I, personally, believe you are defending the indefensible. I don't see any way for Smith to be a real prophet, and the Book of Mormon to be anything but a work of fiction. I'm totally serious when I say that I respect your determination and resolve, but I still think you are fundamentally wrong, and will continue to disagree with you. I disagree with Hum, too, but so far, he and I have had some good conversations, both public AND private, and I am wondering if he might be a calming influence in all of this. I know he is to ME!

One last thing, and I'll prepare to be blasted for this, as well .... As much as you love Jeff and respect him, don't you admit that his current temper tantrum (my interpretation, of course) is a distraction from your Church's message? Do you really think he needs to continue to spew forth anger and indignation? Sure, I can be a jerk at times, but I have said - AND DEMONSTRATED - that even in the heat of battle, if given HALF A CHANCE - I can switch to "civil mode" in a heartbeat. It is my nature because of the Spirit within me, who tries SO HARD to keep me "nice", in spite of my "natural man" who loves conflict. I believe the Apostle Paul expressed a similar struggle. I can only IMAGINE how he would deal with Mormonism. (Yeah, I know, you think he'd be part of the cheer-leader team )

OK -- done with my "un anti" speech. Ready for "incoming"!

[OtherCheek]

I really do respect you, OC, for hanging in there - I know it has got to be hard.

I also know that one of the things that really upsets Jeff is the lack of respect that Jo and Frank get. Try to read Frank's stuff from a "disinterested third party" perspective, OC -- it's just the same "I'm spiritual and you're not - I know everything and you don't" stuff over and over. And Jo is on this anti-Christianity crusade where she still can't keep orthodox and Orthodox straight, and keeps repeating the same things over and over. It appears to us (or to me, anyway) that she seems to think that MORE WORDS make up for lack of message, and she just keeps typing and typing, invariably saying something that is "easy pickins".

Stepping out of my " 'anti' persona" for just a moment, if I were on your side, I think I would have a team meeting, so to speak, with "my guys" to talk about strategies in "defending the faith". Jo claims she got an email from somebody endorsing her anti-Christiandom "strategy".... would you have done that? Would you think it's a good idea?

You seem to be, whether you like it or not, the "team leader" here for the Mormon side. As much as I disagree with you, you have the greatest potential for a "ok, let's slow down and talk about this" session. Now, when I've said something like this before, you have pushed back (understandably so) with a "well, why don't you do that with YOUR side" type of response. But it's not MY faith that is under examination here, OC. It's YOURS! And, I THINK I have learned - recently - that we have a difference of perspective on "faith". I don't mean your PERSONAL faith in Mormonism -- that is without question. I don't KNOW anybody who displays a greater faith in what they believe. I mean your doctrines, your leader, your Book of Mormon... THOSE things are under examination here. Not Christianity. This is the MORMON forum.

As you are aware, I, personally, believe you are defending the indefensible. I don't see any way for Smith to be a real prophet, and the Book of Mormon to be anything but a work of fiction. I'm totally serious when I say that I respect your determination and resolve, but I still think you are fundamentally wrong, and will continue to disagree with you. I disagree with Hum, too, but so far, he and I have had some good conversations, both public AND private, and I am wondering if he might be a calming influence in all of this. I know he is to ME!

One last thing, and I'll prepare to be blasted for this, as well .... As much as you love Jeff and respect him, don't you admit that his current temper tantrum (my interpretation, of course) is a distraction from your Church's message? Do you really think he needs to continue to spew forth anger and indignation? Sure, I can be a jerk at times, but I have said - AND DEMONSTRATED - that even in the heat of battle, if given HALF A CHANCE - I can switch to "civil mode" in a heartbeat. It is my nature because of the Spirit within me, who tries SO HARD to keep me "nice", in spite of my "natural man" who loves conflict. I believe the Apostle Paul expressed a similar struggle. I can only IMAGINE how he would deal with Mormonism. (Yeah, I know, you think he'd be part of the cheer-leader team )

OK -- done with my "un anti" speech. Ready for "incoming"!

Frank has his own approach, which is not mine. He has admitted in the past that he has not a lot of tolerance. Jo has really tried IMO to take a kinder, gentler approach. But I remember posts of the past that questioned her sanity. Just mean stuff directed personally at her. That didn't sit well with me. And I don't condone any personal attacks from either side, but we are all guilty of egging on the other side from time to time, and provoking them to anger. Even if done subconsciously, it is done. All have sinned. Right?

I think Jeff is aware of his own weaknesses, as am I aware of mine. We don't need others to confess our weaknesses for us.

[nrajeff]

You could always come over to the LDS without flames nrajeff.
You can express anything you want over there as long as it isn't insulting, mocking . . . in other words flaming.
OC, hmmm and I are having a perfectly calm and rational discussion about the beliefs of LDS on that thread.
Frankly I am confused as to why you aren't over there and continue to put up with behavior that you object to on this tread.

The answer is that I respect that thread and its purposes, and I find nothing objectionable in it, and I don't want to bring anything into it that could result in contaminating it. I am reading every post in your thread, and I give you high praise for accomplishing something that has almost never been accomplished before in this forum.

I was actually going to start a new thread noting how remarkable your thread is, and asking why there can't be more like it in this forum. It is a great experiment. I look forward to seeing how long it can continue before someone "blows it" by saying something that ruins it. I don't want that person to be me, so I am just lurking.

[nrajeff]

I AM kinda curious, to be honest, how his determination to be as bad as us poor apostates fits in with "after all you can do".

I don't intend to be anything near as bad as you lot.

[nrajeff]

I'm certainly ready!

Before you "move on" there was a question I had been wanting an answer to:

What was the meaning of the "fa-fa-fa" that you and Sparko used to taunt me with? I mean, it was obviously some kind of mockery, but a lot of your mocking is cryptic, like this one was. So I didn't know what it was referring to.

Finding out its meaning was something that I had in my "bucket list" of things I wanted to find out before I die/permanently leave the forum/get banned for mentioning the emperor's missing clothes too frequently.

[Xru]

I think you caught Jeff at the wrong time, X. I have been posting with him for years, and I find him funny, and logical, and patient.

I'd like to see that time again when jeff was happier with certain Twebber here on Tweb like myself. i can't remember reading anything from jeff up until I read the OP he started this thread. The initial OP ande the reaction to it kind of set the tone and in my mind I was kinda "oh oh. This should be interesting".

So I have nothing to remember or compare jeff too. But if you say in happier times jeff is funny, logical, and patient then I have no reason to doubt this.

But his patience has ran thin the last few days.

An understatement;) . . . but I get what you mean.

I know exactly what he is fed up with and what he is sick of seeing and taking.

I could take a good guess. I didn't help and I can only admit that the posts I've made to jeff's OP are not me at my best and possibly my worst here on Tweb . . which I've apologized for more than once and I'm not inclined to do it again..

I have also gotten (and get) fed up at times, but I have made myself a promise to bear with it better than I have in the past, and practice the attribute of forbearance and patience more than I have in the past.

Ya I bet you have . . . I have to say that after some of the stuff you've taken I'm impressed that you are still here and rather admirable at that.

I think you are fairly astute to pick up on the innuendo that is often present in posts here on TWeb that tend to "egg others on" and provoke them to anger.

Well . . whether I'm astute or not . . . that's for other people to judge and I don't think some other Twebbers would call me that but . . . thanks I guess.

The "innuendo" as you call it seems glaringly obvious and someone would have to be pretty blind not to see it . . . I mean really blind. "Zombie Jesus" is about as welcome to Christians as some of the repeated "innuendos" and I mean repeated multiple times by the most active Twebbers in this thread.

I think that you have framed the main way some of us Twebbers have stubbed their toe here in this tread repeatedly and then repeatedly again using Red Button words ... . and this is an all word way of communicating. It seems to me that you and jeff and jo in their own way have tried to raise flags and ask others to cease and desist . . . but that wasn't at all respected.

There are some things that one cannot expect to be said over and over again in this kind of charged emotional environment and expect an extremely high level of emotional reaction and it seems obvious to me that this is what has happen.

And I have done it too.

I suppose although I don't think you've been quite as off the wall as some of us Protestants.

I don't think there is a person on this forum who hasn't done it at some time--albeit sometimes unwittingly, or without purposeful intent.

I hope this is true . . . I can't imagine that some Twebbers that have frequented this OP and thread are as insensitive and down right crude in their people skills that that everything I've read is purposeful. At times it probably was I suppose but I don't know that and must leave it up to the people involved to judge themselves.

[humbled4444]

Wow, the atmosphere around here is sure improving - I for one would like to thank everyone for giving this another chance.

[Cow Poke]

Frank has his own approach, which is not mine. He has admitted in the past that he has not a lot of tolerance.

Noted.

Jo has really tried IMO to take a kinder, gentler approach. But I remember posts of the past that questioned her sanity. Just mean stuff directed personally at her. That didn't sit well with me.

I think my posts that you may think questioned her sanity followed her (IMO) infamous outburst thrashing me and my Church, and accusing me of the secret vaults in my basement, etc. I didn't know here very well, and, yeah, I thought that was a bit insane.

And I don't condone any personal attacks from either side,

Well, I would have to very politely and respectfully disagree, OC. There have been a few times where I have tried to appeal to you on behalf of somebody's (IMO) particularly vicious rants, and you always seem to dutifully back them. And you've made your share of personal attacks on me, truth be told. We've all had our moments.

..but we are all guilty of egging on the other side from time to time, and provoking them to anger.

absolutely.

Even if done subconsciously, it is done. All have sinned. Right?

That's what the Good Book say!

I think Jeff is aware of his own weaknesses, as am I aware of mine. We don't need others to confess our weaknesses for us.

[Xru]

The answer is that I respect that thread and its purposes, and I find nothing objectionable in it, and I don't want to bring anything into it that could result in contaminating it. I am reading every post in your thread, and I give you high praise for accomplishing something that has almost never been accomplished before in this forum.

Maybe some other time then jeff;)

[Xru]

I don't intend to be anything near as bad as you lot.

Good for your, ha ha ha ha h ha ;)

[Cow Poke]

I don't intend to be anything near as bad as you lot.

[Cow Poke]

Before you "move on" there was a question I had been wanting an answer to:

What was the meaning of the "fa-fa-fa" that you and Sparko used to taunt me with? I mean, it was obviously some kind of mockery, but a lot of your mocking is cryptic, like this one was. So I didn't know what it was referring to.

Finding out its meaning was something that I had in my "bucket list" of things I wanted to find out before I die/permanently leave the forum/get banned for mentioning the emperor's missing clothes too frequently.

I can't even imagine what "fa-fa-fa" would be. Not even a clue.

But why is that important, Jeff? You seem to have no respect for me at all, so why does it matter what I said to you way back when? That's what I don't get. When you said, AGAIN, that you didn't "automatically" think I was telling the truth (need I get the "exact quote" on that?) it would have really hurt if it came from somebody I respected. And I don't mean that to start a whole new round of insults. I'm being very honest... after your recent attacks on Punkinhead, and your apparent determination to live up to the "jackass" and "jerk" accusations, your attack on my moral character was quite easily brushed off. I have never lied to you, and can't think of a single time I have been dishonest. I have no reason to.

And I have even resisted "amen'ing" Sparko a lot of times when I totally agreed with his post, simply because I knew it looked like a "ganging up" thing. There have also been MANY times when Sparko said something, and I actually typed a response, but, realizing it was "piling on", I hit "cancel" instead of "submit".

You can believe that or not, I honestly don't care -- I know what's true regarding my thoughts and intents.

But I can't even imagine what the "fa-fa-fa" would be.

[nrajeff]

Seems you need that comment explained to you:

I do not intend to initiate attacks on other posters wherein I sink to the level of insults and mockery that "some of you" have sunk in your attacks on other posters.

That is what I meant.

[Bill the Cat]

Before you "move on" there was a question I had been wanting an answer to:

What was the meaning of the "fa-fa-fa" that you and Sparko used to taunt me with? .

Jeff Dunham's puppett Peanut calls him "Jeff-fa-fa" in one of his bits to get on Jeff's nerves. I actually called you that first because I had seen the special from Richmond the night before. It was an attempt to be funny.

[Cow Poke]

What was the meaning of the "fa-fa-fa"...

This is one of life's lessons I had to learn the hard way, Jeff. In High School, I had a really big grudge against a guy who had cheated me out of a "win" on a design competition for a Science Fair in JUNIOR HIGH school. I had had a great idea for an invention (one of the things you and I have in common, by the way) and he found out about it. He insisted on helping me, and we spent a number of really long evenings planning and designing the project. On the day of the competition, to my amazement, he had built his OWN project, much nicer than "ours", because he learned from all our mistakes, and made improvements he didn't share with me. I know it sounds really stupid, but at the time, it was really devastating, and the prize was a significant amount of future college money, and, of course, a ticket to regional competitions, etc.

Anyway, YEARS LATER, a high school coach called me aside, and asked me what my problem was with Jeff. (Just kidding - not his name) This was back when coaches seemed genuinely interested in the all-around development of young people, and were more like "life coaches" than they seem to be these days. Another aside -- this coach was unusual in another respect -- I was bout the farthest thing from a "jock" in High School, but this coach didn't seem to care. He seemed genuinely interested in being a coach to ALL the kids, not just the jocks. ANYWAY, it took some time for him to get the story out of me, about why I seemed to have such a grudge against this other kid.

What he told me was one of those "life changing" moments, although, here in a post, I'm sure it will seem incredibly anti-climatic. He explained, very patiently, that the other kid had LONG AGO FORGOTTEN that he even did that. He helped me to understand that I was letting this kid CONTROL me, but HE wasn't even aware that I existed. Coach convinced me that I was actually making DECISIONS based on what this other kid did, and the other kid was totally unaware of me. For example, I'd see this kid come into the gym through the North doors, and I'd walk around the hall to come into the gym from the South or East doors. That's what the coach noticed, and why he felt compelled to work with me.

It was literally like letting me out of JAIL or something. The kid stole from ME --- why should I let HIM dictate my life? HE was the "bad guy", and I was allowing him to control ME.

For what it's worth, Jeff --- you're letting us control you, and it's eating you up. Again, I know this is probably a total waste of time, but it's worth a shot.