One Chance for a Clean Start

[nrajeff]

That does pose a difficulty here, I think. For some of our posters, it really is a heartfelt belief that Latter-day Saints, as a general rule, do not qualify as Christians by some supremely relevant standard. I don't think it's usually intended as an egregious insult (it's not meant to challenge either your personal morality or your religious devotion and piety), but I can understand why some Latter-day Saints might feel that way. I'm sure that if we attempted to stop anyone from giving their honest opinion on the classification issue, that would be perceived as an unfair limit on discourse - and I think they'd be right to see it that way. (For the same reason, I wouldn't want to institute a rule to the effect that Latter-day Saints can't make any reference to the Great Apostasy, even though it has a functionally analogous gist and comparable offending potential.) I don't know that there's a simple, universal solution here that could satisfy everyone. The trouble is weighing the balances between civility and honest expression. To what extent are we willing to shackle ourselves and one another in regard to honesty for the sake of avoiding offense? My recommendation for those who hold a belief that Latter-day Saints in general do not count as Christians would be: (1) seek to phrase it as a general third-person remark rather than a specific second-person remark (i.e., "you're not a Christian"), and (2) try to mention it sparingly. For those Latter-day Saints who would see even that as offensive, my recommendation would be to not impute personal hostility or desire to offend, and to brush it off as best one can for the gospel's sake, preferably ignoring it altogether. My personal commitment is that I'll avoid weighing in on the classification issue.

I agree with and appreciate 99% of that. Thanks.

[Cow Poke]

Accepted. I just feel badly for people who get hounded, repeatedly, over a typo or any other mistake they made in the past.

You do it too, Jeff, with your "Mr Pedantic" and various disparagements of my role as pastor. Do you feel badly about that, too?

And I still think you'd do yourself a world of good by apologizing for your meanness to Punkinhead (Ke)

[nrajeff]

You do it too, Jeff

Not anymore. I plan to keep my word and live up to the pledge.

with your "Mr Pedantic"

Actually, that was a reference to when you guys called ME that. I was just returning fire. Plus, I stopped saying it.

and various disparagements of my role as pastor. Do you feel badly about that, too?

Yes, for the most part.

And I still think you'd do yourself a world of good by apologizing for your meanness to Punkinhead (Ke)

I missed where she apologized to me, but whatever.

I also need make a clarification regarding the meaning "One chance..." in the title of this thread, in case it was misunderstood by anyone: What I meant was that I was willing to let bygones be bygones, and to try forget, as much as humanly possible, past insults, and not bring them up or hold grudges. I hoped that everyone else would make a similar effort. If that failed, and things got as bad as before, then the only "ultimatum" was that I planned to leave, quit TWEB, and not return for the foreseeable future.

[ke7ejx]

The truth of the matter is I don't give a fig about it any more. Words were said, things were corrected, I just do not give a darn.......

[Sparko]

No, because I do not claim to be, nor do I believe myself to be, one. Just like you presumably would not be offended if I told you that you were not a woman.

well in the same way, you do not claim to be part of orthodox Christianity, so why would you be upset by the comment by one of us that you are not a Christian? We obviously mean a Christian as defined by the orthodox Christian faith and doctrines. Anyone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't hold to the orthodox doctrines would not be considered Christian to us. I could call myself a Muslim and then redefine Islam to be what I wanted it to be, but that would not make me an actual Muslim, and if a Muslim told me I was not a Muslim, then I would have no reason to be upset, because to him I would not be a Muslim.

[One Bad Pig]

The truth of the matter is I don't give a fig about it any more. Words were said, things were corrected, I just do not give a darn.......

How is that supposed to stir the pot?

[Cow Poke]

Not anymore. I plan to keep my word and live up to the pledge.

OK, then I shall not respond to the rest of your post --- I'm dropping it!

AND... I noticed you got rid of the "Danite" monicker. MAJOR kudos for that, Jeff!

I DO miss the guy with the gun avatar, though!

[ke7ejx]

How is that supposed to stir the pot?

I'm sorry, am I failing my duties at the moment?

[One Bad Pig]

I'm sorry, am I failing my duties at the moment?

I don't care. . . .

[ke7ejx]

I don't care. . . .

That's okay pig, I can always preach the gospel of repentance to you..... I just need to know where the missionaries can find you.

[eudyptes]

mmmm.....sausage




....sorry all that talk about figs and pigs....made me hungry

[One Bad Pig]

That's okay pig, I can always preach the gospel of repentance to you..... I just need to know where the missionaries can find you.

They found me once, but I moved.

OTOH, the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists can find me just fine.

[nrajeff]

well in the same way, you do not claim to be part of orthodox Christianity, so why would you be upset by the comment by one of us that you are not a Christian? We obviously mean a Christian as defined by the orthodox Christian faith and doctrines.

Because that is an arbitrary and ambiguous term, and is sure to mislead the public at large. Personally, I don't consider your beliefs to be identical to those of original (apostolic era) Christianity. But I am loath to publicly declare to the world that you are not a Christian, and then hope that all readers will just "understand" that I qualify that with the qualifiers "not an orthodox, 1st-century-doctrine-believing-in every aspect-Christian."

Using the modern, commonly used dictionary definition of "Christian," I consider both you and myself to be Christians, because I believe we both meet the minimum requirements for it.

Anyone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't hold to the orthodox doctrines would not be considered Christian to us.

Some Orthodox (uppercase O) Christians might not consider you to be a Christian by similar criteria, since you probably don't hold to all the Orthodox doctrines. In fact, I am willing to bet money that you don't. Yet I would disagree with any Orthodox Christian who declares that you are not a Christian based merely on that.

[Cow Poke]

They found me once, but I moved.

We moved one night and didn't even know it. They closed the local post office, and suddenly we were "Route 4 Box 135" instead of "Route 1 Box 15" - and my little sister asked "are we in the CITY now?" Had to learn a whole new zipper code! Praise God they didn't have 9 digits back then!

[Sparko]

Because that is an arbitrary and ambiguous term, and is sure to mislead the public at large. Personally, I don't consider your beliefs to be identical to those of original (apostolic era) Christianity. But I am loath to publicly declare to the world that you are not a Christian, and then hope that all readers will just "understand" that I qualify that with the qualifiers "not an orthodox, 1st-century-doctrine-believing-in every aspect-Christian."

Using the modern, commonly used dictionary definition of "Christian," I consider both you and myself to be Christians, because I believe we both meet the minimum requirements for it.


Some Orthodox (uppercase O) Christians might not consider you to be a Christian by similar criteria, since you probably don't hold to all the Orthodox doctrines. In fact, I am willing to bet money that you don't. Yet I would disagree with any Orthodox Christian who declares that you are not a Christian based merely on that.

Why don't you ask One Bad Pig if he considers me to be Christian or not? He is an Orthodox (big o) Christian. I consider him a Christian.

You might consider us both Christians, but then you might consider Jehovah's Witnesses and Moonies to be Christian also. I don't. I have always told you that there are certain essential doctrines that one must hold to be a Christian and if you don't hold them, then you are not a Christian. One of those being the Trinity, of ONE God revealed in three persons, not three Gods, nor one God pretending to be three persons, or anything like that. The LDS idea of God is unorthodox and heretical and places them outside of Christianity.