The Laws of Logic Imply God's Existence

[shunyadragon]

Well Jim, first we are all wicked. We all sin, and look what Paul says about himself: For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.... Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death...

And it is not only Paul, the bible is pretty clear, look at the Psalms:The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." Look at the prophet Jeremiah, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it.

Those who reject their Creator Jim are foolish and deceived. That doesn't make you any worse or better than the rest of us - it makes you a sinful human being, just like the rest of us.

This is an unfortunate pessimistic negative view of Paul concerning the nature of being human. The idea of original sin, that we are wicked and 'nothing good dwells in me' has been a terrible albatross of guilt on believers ever since

[seer]

This is an unfortunate pessimistic negative view of Paul concerning the nature of being human. The idea of original sin, that we are wicked and 'nothing good dwells in me' has been a terrible albatross of guilt on believers ever since

Christ said the same thing Shuny. "Out of the heart of man comes all manner of wickedness." "If you being EVIL know how to give good gifts..." This is man's natural state apart from faith in Christ and His righteousness. It's the truth Shuny, we are a wicked lot - and that is why I said a while back that you hate the truth.

[shunyadragon]

]

Christ said the same thing Shuny. "Out of the heart of man comes all manner of wickedness." "If you being EVIL know how to give good gifts..." This is man's natural state apart from faith in Christ and His righteousness. It's the truth Shuny, we are a wicked lot - and that is why I said a while back that you hate the truth.

Saying that the human heart is a source of wickedness, or IF being evil, is decidedly different than what Paul said. It simply states the position of free will where humans can make good and bad or evil choices. This view brings up the problem of the responsibility of God creating humanity with these attributes, 'as being evil,' and the consequences of this if true. The dogma of the belief in the 'Fall' greatly contributes to this hateful negative unfortunate view of human nature. I much prefer the Jewish and Baha'i view of humanity as created noble, but fallible and capable of doing bad and evil things.

Your accusation of considering others and myself 'hating the truth' reflects a very dangerous view that is found in Evangelicals and others in Christianity and Islam today which directly leads to the violence of Christian and Islamic history towards others who believe differently, To the believers of Christianity and Islam it translates to hating Christianity and Islam, and often than again translating to non-believers hating Christians and Muslims.

[seer]

]

Saying that the human heart is a source of wickedness, or IF being evil, is decidedly different than what Paul said. It simply states the position of free will where humans can make good and bad or evil choices. This view brings up the problem of the responsibility of God creating humanity with these attributes, 'as being evil,' and the consequences of this if true. The dogma of the belief in the 'Fall' greatly contributes to this hateful negative unfortunate view of human nature. I much prefer the Jewish and Baha'i view of humanity as created noble, but fallible and capable of doing bad and evil things.

Well no, again Shuny, you are not only speaking againt Paul, but again Christ and the tenor of scriprure in general. We are lost and wicked by nature until one is regenerated, i.e. born again. And it doesn't matter if this is a "negative" view of human nature - it is a correct one. That is why you, me and everbody else is in need of salvation. And remember, we Christians do believe that all men are created in the image of God and do have inherent worth.

Your accusation of considering others and myself 'hating the truth' reflects a very dangerous view that is found in Evangelicals and others in Christianity and Islam today which directly leads to the violence of Christian and Islamic history towards others who believe differently, To the believers of Christianity and Islam it translates to hating Christianity and Islam, and often than again translating to non-believers hating Christians and Muslims.

Nonsense... As a Christian I am to love my neighbor, even to love my enemy, to do good to those that harm me. No matter how foolish, lost or wicked. After all I too was once such a man. As Paul tells us in the letter to Titus:

Speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

[ST Mannew]

Christ said the same thing Shuny. "Out of the heart of man comes all manner of wickedness." "If you being EVIL know how to give good gifts..." This is man's natural state apart from faith in Christ and His righteousness. It's the truth Shuny, we are a wicked lot - and that is why I said a while back that you hate the truth.

That’s right, how do we know anything without the benefit of the truth, and knowing what is true, the truth does not come natural to man, but knowing the truth is the realization of God through Christ, who is truth itself. Kinda perfect don’t you think.

[seer]

That’s right, how do we know anything without the benefit of the truth, and knowing what is true, the truth does not come natural to man, but knowing the truth is the realization of God through Christ, who is truth itself. Kinda perfect don’t you think.

yes...

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense... As a Christian I am to love my neighbor, even to love my enemy, to do good to those that harm me. No matter how foolish, lost or wicked. After all I too was once such a man. As Paul tells us in the letter to Titus:

Speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

This is a very unfortunate naive view of the reality of the history and relationship between believers and the rest of the world. The hatred is clearly manifest in reality even today.

[seer]

This is a very unfortunate naive view of the reality of the history and relationship between believers and the rest of the world. The hatred is clearly manifest in reality even today.

Again Shuny, this is pure nonsense. My religion, even with the doctrine of depravity, teaches me to love all men. To be gracious and kind because we are all sinners. We are all in the same boat. We all need the same saving grace. And we all are image bearers of the most high God. So peddle this somewhere else. And believe me, we don't need religion to teach us to hate - we do that quite naturally.

[pancreasman]

yes...

So basically here you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions, one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH. Why bother then with argument? Why bother with this site? Why bother using rationality to support your view?

[seer]

So basically here you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions, one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH. Why bother then with argument? Why bother with this site? Why bother using rationality to support your view?

Well Pancreasman I don't know what pixie dust has to do with Divine influence. But would put it this way. A rational God offers a good foundation for a rational and intelligible universe, and for human rationally. It would offer an objective rational goal or standard. The better you line up with the Word of God the closer you are to being rational (never mind offering an objective, eternal source for justice, love and our moral sense). Of course how one gets on this path in the first place is up for debate - the Arminians will say one thing the Calvinist another. The former believing that God is in fact knocking on the door of every human heart in one way or the other - but it is up to us to respond.

[pancreasman]

Well Pancreasman I don't know what pixie dust has to do with Divine influence. But would put it this way. A rational God offers a good foundation for a rational and intelligible universe, and for human rationally. It would offer an objective rational goal or standard. The better you line up with the Word of God the closer you are to being rational (never mind offering an objective, eternal source for justice, love and our moral sense). Of course how one gets on this path in the first place is up for debate - the Arminians will say one thing the Calvinist another. The former believing that God is in fact knocking on the door of every human heart in one way or the other - but it is up to us to respond.

But you've just denied the post you agreed with before. If rationality can lead you to truth (even if not Truth whatever that might be) then this statement is false:

That’s right, how do we know anything without the benefit of the truth, and knowing what is true, the truth does not come natural to man, but knowing the truth is the realization of God through Christ, who is truth itself.

[shunyadragon]

Again Shuny, this is pure nonsense. My religion, even with the doctrine of depravity, teaches me to love all men. To be gracious and kind because we are all sinners. We are all in the same boat. We all need the same saving grace. And we all are image bearers of the most high God. So peddle this somewhere else. And believe me, we don't need religion to teach us to hate - we do that quite naturally.

Again seer, this is pure nonsense, . . .

First it is not your religion.

Second, it is not the witness of the religion as to what it claims to teach. I am referring to actual interaction in history and today of Christians with non-believers, which is rift with violence. This forum and your posts are a clear witness to acrimony and the nature of the dialogue such as accusing others of 'Hating the truth. This view has consequences in relationships with none believers which you are avoiding with unreasonably idealistic views of the meaning of selective citations in scripture.

[seer]

But you've just denied the post you agreed with before. If rationality can lead you to truth (even if not Truth whatever that might be) then this statement is false:

Pancreasman, I'm not sure what you are on about. Perhaps I misunderstood ST.M - maybe he could expound, but I think we are on the same page.

[seer]

Again seer, this is pure nonsense, . . .

First it is not your religion.

Second, it is not the witness of the religion as to what it claims to teach. I am referring to actual interaction in history and today of Christians with non-believers, which is rift with violence. This forum and your posts are a clear witness to acrimony and the nature of the dialogue such as accusing others of 'Hating the truth. This view has consequences in relationships with none believers which you are avoiding with unreasonably idealistic views of the meaning of selective citations in scripture.

Bull Shuny, plain and simple. First, I don't care what men did in the "name" of Christ - if they were not following the teachings of Christ then they carry no weight with me. Second, you do hate the truth - after many discussions this has become quite evident. Third, this belief does not compel me to harm you or anyone else. And to suggest otherwise is unjustified slander. I have long ago given up any idea that I could talk sense to you, and where your "opinion" differs from scripture I will choose scripture thank you. And finally, that idol you are now worshipping will only lead you to death and misery - for your own sake man repent and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. “What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his very soul?”

[pancreasman]

you disagree with my worldview = 'you hate the truth!'

There is no discussion with such a view. As has been clearly demonstrated here you cannot actually hear what someone is saying as long as your prejudice is that they are deluded or evil.