The Laws of Logic Imply God's Existence

[ST Mannew]

First, I have never said that there are thousands of truths. Please cite me properly before we go one. Yes, just because someone, you or I believe something is true does not make it true. Your humility is only superseded by the opinion that what you believe is the only truth.

You seem to want to pay attention to all claims of truth even though we know that they are not true, why? And because there are many false claims then it is unlikely then that truth is knowable to humans, why do you think this? But would it be true if I said that you don’t know the truth because you have not found it yet?

I never said nor intimidated any such thing, please cite me properly. It is a dangerous toy to toose around a word like 'Hate' so frivolously, It does not speak well of your ethics and morals.

Letting someone stay in a lie that you know is hurting them is a form of hate, and it is not a frivolous assertion. What do you think this is a popularity contest? If they hated Christ for being the truth, they will definitely hate anyone who speaks it.

[pancreasman]

Hans Christian Anderson story The Kings' New Clothes

I know the story, I just don't understand why you're referring to it.

[pancreasman]

Do you actually think about what you write before you type it? The truth makes one rational; and saying something is rational without the benefit of that something being true is the definition of irrational. Your problem is not “magic pixie dust” in your eyes, but it is what happens when one tries to look into the light of truth from a dark room, the truth that would make you rational now blinds you and makes you irrational. Your enemy is not us, your enemy comes from within, you think you are arguing with us but you are actually arguing with yourself and trying to justify to yourself the things that you think you can believe. That’s the nature of untruths believed, they are vacuous in nature ever sucking for affirmation from others because they contain no substantial form in which would make them real. Pancreasman I am not arguing with you, I am arguing with and against the lies you believe, on your behalf, and trying to show you that when something in you as been exposed, meaning that it has been shown to you that it is no longer true, then you are under no obligation to believe it any longer. Your enemy is your own pride; it is called “self”, when you would stop and think about self, it is irrational in itself, because self as no reason to be proud.

I know you're new here and you might be impressed by the 'insult your opponent' style of argument that some posters use, but can I just encourage you to explore some other styles of communication? There are several orthodox, traditional, conservative Christians on this site whose posts are always coherent, well thought out and aimed at content rather than the person. I admire these people. Some posts to look at might be those posed by Rogue, Adrift, oxmixmudd, Kenny. They are staunch defenders of their faith without being a jerk about it. When they post, I read it, and I consider their thoughts carefully. I am much more likely to be convinced by their arguments since I recognize that they respect me as a person. That respect is worth a great deal more than any number of Bible quotes thrown out to 'prove' I'm an idiot. In short, grow up a little.

[shunyadragon]

I know the story, I just don't understand why you're referring to it.

The illusion of believing something is true, because your honor and threat of shame is vested in it being so. The King's honor and the threat of shame was vested in the belief that the new clothes were real, regardless of the fact there were no clothes.

[pancreasman]

The illusion of believing something is true, because your honor and threat of shame is vested in it being so. The King's honor and the threat of shame was vested in the belief that the new clothes were real, regardless of the fact there were no clothes.

Oh ... ok

[shunyadragon]

Oh ... ok

this is other side of the ANE honor shame cultural paradigm that traditional theists do not talk about.

[seer]

this is other side of the ANE honor shame cultural paradigm that traditional theists do not talk about.

There is nothing I won't talk about Homer - bring it on...

[ST Mannew]

I know you're new here and you might be impressed by the 'insult your opponent' style of argument that some posters use, but can I just encourage you to explore some other styles of communication? There are several orthodox, traditional, conservative Christians on this site whose posts are always coherent, well thought out and aimed at content rather than the person. I admire these people. Some posts to look at might be those posed by Rogue, Adrift, oxmixmudd, Kenny. They are staunch defenders of their faith without being a jerk about it. When they post, I read it, and I consider their thoughts carefully. I am much more likely to be convinced by their arguments since I recognize that they respect me as a person. That respect is worth a great deal more than any number of Bible quotes thrown out to 'prove' I'm an idiot. In short, grow up a little.

Oh stop being such a belly achier, I am not insulting you, it just seems that way to you because you are being called out on what you are saying here and you have no answer for my critique of your conjurings.
And what I say is aimed at what you say and not you, or have you also got the magic power of not personalizing what you believe? Let me get this straight, you consider what these so called “staunch defenders of their faith” say and you cannot find anything in it that is in contradiction with what you believe, and you are a (a)theist? And if you and them like what they say, then they have a bigger problem than you do. And how can I respect someone who I do not know from Adam? I can only go by what you have written and I know that it is lies what you have written so how can I have respect that?

If it is true what you are saying then prove it, why don’t you confute my criticism of your conjuring.

Here this is what you said and what I was responding to:

pancreasman said: “So basically here you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions, one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH. Why bother then with argument? Why bother with this site? Why bother using rationality to support your view?”

The bolded is what I am referring to when I said; ‘Do you actually think about what you write before you type it? The truth makes one rational; and saying something is rational without the benefit of that something being true is the definition of irrational.’

And this is why I said it;

Does this statement seem coherent to you? Words when put together in sentences mean things in several different ways, explicitly and implicitly. You are addressing me here when you say, “you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions, one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH.” You seem to presume by direct implication that the truth, the “correct position” are one and the same thing, your own “rationality”.
Now this time instead in voicing my own opinion about a person who thinks they can do this and are capable of this in their own minds, I will leave it to the reader to make their own judgment to this.
And like I said; the truth is what makes one rational, and not with you and your own rationality do you make truth, do you actually believe you possess this power? Because that is the direct implication of what you said, ““you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions,” yes I am, that for your position to be correct it must also be true to be correct, before it can be presumed to be rational. Then you go on and say, “one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH.” No, one just needs the truth to know that one is being rational, the truth is required to know that it is indeed true what one is thinking, the correct position.

Now why don’t confute what I said about what you said, and stop being deceptive in pretending I said something untrue, refute what I said and prove it (a)theist.

[shunyadragon]

You seem to want to pay attention to all claims of truth even though we know that they are not true, why? And because there are many false claims then it is unlikely then that truth is knowable to humans, why do you think this? But would it be true if I said that you don’t know the truth because you have not found it yet?

Why don't I think humans are capable of knowing the absolute truth, because they have so many versions of the claims of such truth, that by the evidence there is no reason humans can come up with the absolute truth.

Letting someone stay in a lie that you know is hurting them is a form of hate, and it is not a frivolous assertion. What do you think this is a popularity contest? If they hated Christ for being the truth, they will definitely hate anyone who speaks it.

Claiming to know the absolute truth and accusing others of 'Hate' that do not agree with you is by far the worse problem, and that cause of much of the violence in the world. Your description above is rather scary, and portends things like inquisitions and public burnings of those that do not believe as you do.

[shunyadragon]

There is nothing I won't talk about Homer - bring it on...

Been there done that.

[seer]

Been there done that.

Then why open your mouth in the first place if you are not going to back it up? Really Shuny you are a hypocrite...

[seer]

Why don't I think humans are capable of knowing the absolute truth, because they have so many versions of the claims of such truth, that by the evidence there is no reason humans can come up with the absolute truth.

No one is claiming that humans came up with the absolute truth. We are saying that God revealed absolute truth, especially in Christ.

[ST Mannew]

Why don't I think humans are capable of knowing the absolute truth, because they have so many versions of the claims of such truth, that by the evidence there is no reason humans can come up with the absolute truth.

Shuny, what you are saying does not make any sense, “because they have so many versions of the claims of such truth”, well people can make all the claims they want, if it is not true what they are claiming then it is not truth they know, would this not be true? You seem to be caught up in this kind of everyone sing Kumbaya and you are too PC too even to the point of being incapable of even helping anyone in fear of, that you may offend them. You need to get past that; it is a deception to keep a good man down, plenty of men thought the same way in the second world war during the late 1930s and 6 million Jews lost their lives because of it.

Claiming to know the absolute truth and accusing others of 'Hate' that do not agree with you is by far the worse problem, and that cause of much of the violence in the world. Your description above is rather scary, and portends things like inquisitions and public burnings of those that do not believe as you do.

LOL, last time I looked atheism had the corner on this stuff, Atheist wiped out more people in one century than all religions combined in all of recorded history, and that is a documented fact. And stop being such a wimp, claiming to know the truth about something is not hate. To think such a thing is to say that you will never say anything that you believe is true in fear of someone being offended, because you cannot believe something unless you also think it is true, I don’t know where you pick up such conjurings, do you actually think that this is a kind of humility? It is not humility, it is just believing a lie.

[pancreasman]

Oh stop being such a belly achier, I am not insulting you, it just seems that way to you because you are being called out on what you are saying here and you have no answer for my critique of your conjurings.
And what I say is aimed at what you say and not you, or have you also got the magic power of not personalizing what you believe? Let me get this straight, you consider what these so called “staunch defenders of their faith” say and you cannot find anything in it that is in contradiction with what you believe, and you are a (a)theist? And if you and them like what they say, then they have a bigger problem than you do. And how can I respect someone who I do not know from Adam? I can only go by what you have written and I know that it is lies what you have written so how can I have respect that?

If it is true what you are saying then prove it, why don’t you confute my criticism of your conjuring.

Here this is what you said and what I was responding to:

pancreasman said: “So basically here you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions, one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH. Why bother then with argument? Why bother with this site? Why bother using rationality to support your view?”

The bolded is what I am referring to when I said; ‘Do you actually think about what you write before you type it? The truth makes one rational; and saying something is rational without the benefit of that something being true is the definition of irrational.’

And this is why I said it;

Does this statement seem coherent to you? Words when put together in sentences mean things in several different ways, explicitly and implicitly. You are addressing me here when you say, “you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions, one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH.” You seem to presume by direct implication that the truth, the “correct position” are one and the same thing, your own “rationality”.
Now this time instead in voicing my own opinion about a person who thinks they can do this and are capable of this in their own minds, I will leave it to the reader to make their own judgment to this.
And like I said; the truth is what makes one rational, and not with you and your own rationality do you make truth, do you actually believe you possess this power? Because that is the direct implication of what you said, ““you are agreeing that rationality cannot lead one to correct positions,” yes I am, that for your position to be correct it must also be true to be correct, before it can be presumed to be rational. Then you go on and say, “one needs the magic pixie dust of divine tinkering in your head to see the TRUTH.” No, one just needs the truth to know that one is being rational, the truth is required to know that it is indeed true what one is thinking, the correct position.

Now why don’t confute what I said about what you said, and stop being deceptive in pretending I said something untrue, refute what I said and prove it (a)theist.

You are quite the delightful human being.

For myself I think I shall try to live by the words of scripture:

If it be possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all men.

Rom 12:18

To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

Titus 3:2

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Hebrews 12:14

But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

1 Peter 3:15

These seem to me like remarkably wise advice on how to deal with others. I fall short a lot of times, but I try to recognize it and start again, a 'constant renewing of my mind' as it were.

[seer]

You are quite the delightful human being.

For myself I think I shall try to live by the words of scripture:

Rom 12:18

Titus 3:2

Hebrews 12:14

1 Peter 3:15

These seem to me like remarkably wise advice on how to deal with others. I fall short a lot of times, but I try to recognize it and start again, a 'constant renewing of my mind' as it were.

Pancreasman, you know your scripture well enough to know that Christ, Paul and Peter in Acts often used hash language when confronting other men. And in fact I think St.M has been rather tender. I mean think of our motives - we would love to see you, Shuny and JimL saved and we long to spend eternity in your company. And if we use a little harsh language to shock you out of your atheism would it not be worth it? Are we not doing you a great kindness?