Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

[Sparko]

Yes, I maintain God justifies apart from the law, not apart from Christ. If you read my post, I said God mercifully extends His grace to those who believe in His Son in Hades, then on judgment Day raises them into life.

Your counter argument misses the mark. Nothing I said about the non elect, contradicts what scripture says about the elect, saved by grace through faith, chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and eternally secure in their salvation.

I am speaking about the non elect. AND I proved scripture teaches they can be saved if they turn to Jesus in Hades.

No one is saved by works or apart from Jesus....you have completely missed my argument.

But repenting and believing in Christ in Hades is in a different dispensation than believing in Christ while still alive, believing in what is unseen. When we believe we are forgiven, our sins blotted out and we are saved "when we believed" and are translated from death into life.

Not so with those in Hades...they have to wait till Judgment Day to rise into life...they remain dead till then.

We are saved "by grace through faith" (Eph 2:8), but that kind of saving "faith" is possible only before Christ is seen:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.
2 For by it the people of old received God's commendation.
(Heb 11:1-2 NET)

The dead in Hades cannot change their location (Luke 16:6), they have to wait for the day of the LORD Jesus for their spirit to be saved (1 Cor 5:5). But that they can rise up into life and not condemnation is clearly taught by Christ:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

There is no chance to be saved after you die. That is what this life is for. To make your choice. after you die you face judgment. You cannot repent after you are dead.

Hebrews 9:27 ...people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

[LetsObeyChrist]

There is no chance to be saved after you die. That is what this life is for. To make your choice. after you die you face judgment. You cannot repent after you are dead.

Hebrews 9:27 ...people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

You must be wrong, it is written "those ho have done good" come out of Hades into life:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

And you misunderstand Hebrews, the correspondence the writer made with Christ:

In context, verse 28 "so Christ" is a correspondence with verse 27 "as it is appointed":

27a And as it is appointed for men to die once,
28a so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

27b but after this the judgment,
28b To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

So there is a delay between the first coming and second coming, it follows there is a delay between death and the judgment.

As these are in correspondence, the judgment referred to is Judgment Day after Christ's coming, not what happened immediately upon death.

[Sparko]

You must be wrong, it is written "those ho have done good" come out of Hades into life:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

That is talking about the grave, hades, not Hell. That is one place you keep getting confused. It is speaking about those who are IN CHRIST who believed during life and belonged to the church. NOT about being able to repent after death.

And you misunderstand Hebrews, the correspondence the writer made with Christ:

In context, verse 28 "so Christ" is a correspondence with verse 27 "as it is appointed":

27a And as it is appointed for men to die once,
28a so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

27b but after this the judgment,
28b To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

So there is a delay between the first coming and second coming, it follows there is a delay between death and the judgment.

As these are in correspondence, the judgment referred to is Judgment Day after Christ's coming, not what happened immediately upon death.

It is clear to everyone but you. You die, and face judgment. No second chance. Why do you think it is important to spread the gospel now? If we all get another chance after we die, then it doesn't matter, does it?

Jesus died once for all who believe in him. we have to choose him NOW, not after we die. After we die it is too late.

[LetsObeyChrist]

That is talking about the grave, hades, not Hell. That is one place you keep getting confused. It is speaking about those who are IN CHRIST who believed during life and belonged to the church. NOT about being able to repent after death.


It is clear to everyone but you. You die, and face judgment. No second chance. Why do you think it is important to spread the gospel now? If we all get another chance after we die, then it doesn't matter, does it?

Jesus died once for all who believe in him. we have to choose him NOW, not after we die. After we die it is too late.

I disagree, believers have eternal security in Christ, their salvation is certain, they won't go through a judgment about that, neither do they end up being raised when the wicked are raised. They are raised up in the rapture/first resurrection before Christ's advent. They become kings and priests in Christ's Millennial kingdom, hence raised up 1000 years before Rev 20:11-15.

As for Hebrews, I proved your understanding of the text is wrong.

I disagree with your opinion, what the text says is far better.

[RBerman]

Yes, I maintain God justifies apart from the law, not apart from Christ. If you read my post, I said God mercifully extends His grace to those who believe in His Son in Hades, then on judgment Day raises them into life... No one is saved by works or apart from Jesus....you have completely missed my argument. But repenting and believing in Christ in Hades is in a different dispensation than believing in Christ while still alive, believing in what is unseen. When we believe we are forgiven, our sins blotted out and we are saved "when we believed" and are translated from death into life. Not so with those in Hades...they have to wait till Judgment Day to rise into life...they remain dead till then.

But LOC, John 5:29 doesn't say anything about people being saved by faith. Doesn't it identify the groupr receiving the resurrection of life as, "those who have done good?" For my position, this isn't salvation by works; it's the same group "who hears my word and believes" and thus receives life in John 5:24. But in your view, the group in 5:29 is different than the group being saved by faith. Since their works are all that's mentioned, wouldn't you have to conclude that they are saved by works? What works would those be, if they're already dead?

Also, what do you mean by "different dispensation"? The word "dispensation" is used four times in KJV to to translate Greek oikonomia (1 Cor 9:17; Eph 1:10; Eph 3:2; Col 1:25). Oikonomia means "management" or "oversight," as an officer/administrator over a household, a trust fund, etc. KJV translates it "stewardship" the other three times it appears (all in Luke 16:1-13, the parable of the shrewd manager). You seem to be using it in a different sense than it's used in the Bible, though. What is that sense?

[LetsObeyChrist]

But LOC, John 5:29 doesn't say anything about people being saved by faith. Doesn't it identify the groupr receiving the resurrection of life as, "those who have done good?" For my position, this isn't salvation by works; it's the same group "who hears my word and believes" and thus receives life in John 5:24. But in your view, the group in 5:29 is different than the group being saved by faith. Since their works are all that's mentioned, wouldn't you have to conclude that they are saved by works? What works would those be, if they're already dead?

Also, what do you mean by "different dispensation"? The word "dispensation" is used four times in KJV to to translate Greek oikonomia (1 Cor 9:17; Eph 1:10; Eph 3:2; Col 1:25). Oikonomia means "management" or "oversight," as an officer/administrator over a household, a trust fund, etc. KJV translates it "stewardship" the other three times it appears (all in Luke 16:1-13, the parable of the shrewd manager). You seem to be using it in a different sense than it's used in the Bible, though. What is that sense?

You contradict yourself. Either these have already passed from death into life and will not be judged, or they died and went to sheol only to be judged if they did good, and then raised up into life.

which is it?

As for dispensation of grace we now are in, being different than what is in effect during the millennial kingdom, that should be obvious from the fact Ezekiel's temple is back in operation, and whoever begins sinning bad enough, even if they were 100 years old, die the death:

20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. (Isa 65:20 NKJ)

Clearly they weren't saved during the millennial kingdom, but at the end of it after one more test. They are "dead" until Judgment Day, to see if their names should be written into the book of life in the Day of Christ, then they (and any dead who were in Hades but had repented) rise to life.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:7-15 NKJ)

This judgment day concerns the dead without Christ, if they are to be added or blotted out of the book of life. They are not saved by works just as those waving to get a lifeguard's attention isn't saved by his waving, but by the lifeguard who swims out to them and takes them ashore.

[RBerman]

You contradict yourself. Either these have already passed from death into life and will not be judged, or they died and went to sheol only to be judged if they did good, and then raised up into life. which is it?

As I noted before, "they will not be judged" in the sense of negative judgment which pervades John 5. They receive life, not condemnation. But you didn't answer the questions I asked.

[LetsObeyChrist]

As I noted before, "they will not be judged" in the sense of negative judgment which pervades John 5. They receive life, not condemnation. But you didn't answer the questions I asked.

You claimed that, didn't prove it. Krisis judgment is on both sides of the equation, the word can denote both judgments that occur in vs 29. You don't agree with that, but fail to prove it can't be just as I said. The lexicon I cited, accepted scholarship, proves it can be used that way. The antithesis proves these are opposite judgments. Either one is raised up in a glorious incorruptible body (Dan 12:2; 1 Cor 15) or a hideous contemptible body reeking of corruption, worm infested (Gal 6:8; Isa 66:24)

While the elect were written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8) these either have their names written into the book ((Mal 3:16) or blotted out from it (Rev 3:5) depending upon their works. So the event in Rev 20:11-15 corresponds perfectly with John 5:28-29 and is not about the church, already saved by grace and reigning with Christ as kings and priests at least 1000 years before this time:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

[RBerman]

You claimed that, didn't prove it. Krisis judgment is on both sides of the equation, the word can denote both judgments that occur in vs 29. You don't agree with that, but fail to prove it can't be just as I said. The lexicon I cited, accepted scholarship, proves it can be used that way.

I agree that in the abstract sense of "ways that krisis can be used," it could denote both halves of John 5:29. But in John 5, the way it actually is used in that text refers only to negative judgment, i.e. condemnation. This is clearly seen by the way "resurrection of life" for good people is contrasted with "resurrection of krisis" for the wicked. You're commiting the "illegitimate semantic totality transfer" fallacy. Read D.A. Carsons' "Exegetical Fallacies" book. If you're not going to answer my other questions, but just continue to argue the same point I've already answered, then I won't have anything more to say for now.

[LetsObeyChrist]

I agree that in the abstract sense of "ways that krisis can be used," it could denote both halves of John 5:29. But in John 5, the way it actually is used in that text refers only to negative judgment, i.e. condemnation. This is clearly seen by the way "resurrection of life" for good people is contrasted with "resurrection of krisis" for the wicked. You're commiting the "illegitimate semantic totality transfer" fallacy. Read D.A. Carsons' "Exegetical Fallacies" book. If you're not going to answer my other questions, but just continue to argue the same point I've already answered, then I won't have anything more to say for now.

The antithesis requires its a KRISIS judgment on both sides of the juxtaposition. There is nothing fallacious about parsimonous interpretation, the "plain sense" of the text. If you think an exegetical fallacy undergirds my interpretation, by all means make the case...I'll not be reading books to make it for you.

[RBerman]

The antithesis requires its a KRISIS judgment on both sides of the juxtaposition. There is nothing fallacious about parsimonous interpretation, the "plain sense" of the text. If you think an exegetical fallacy undergirds my interpretation, by all means make the case...I'll not be reading books to make it for you.

Pity. It's a good book, helpful for getting all Christians to think carefully about the way the Bible uses language. At any rate, since you're not saying anything new, and you're not answering the questions I posed in my previous post, I have nothing additional to say either.

[LetsObeyChrist]

Pity. It's a good book, helpful for getting all Christians to think carefully about the way the Bible uses language. At any rate, since you're not saying anything new, and you're not answering the questions I posed in my previous post, I have nothing additional to say either.

I just added the book to Logos, I'll check it out to see if this text is discussed, but I won't make your argument for you. I think its absurd you even want me to do that.

I searched for our target text, couldn't find it discussed at all.

You must make your own argument or I will point you to the library of congress as proving my point.

"In there is the answer, the proof you are wrong...is in those books!....just kidding, I like proposing sound argument."

[RBerman]

I just added the book to Logos, I'll check it out to see if this text is discussed, but I won't make your argument for you. I think its absurd you even want me to do that.

I searched for our target text, couldn't find it discussed at all.

You must make your own argument or I will point you to the library of congress as proving my point.

"In there is the answer, the proof you are wrong...is in those books!....just kidding, I like proposing sound argument."

My claim was not that John 5 was discussed in that book. My claim was that reading about exegetical fallacies in general, and the total semantic transfer fallacy in general, might help you see why it's not helpful to ignore the specific way krisis is actually used in John 5 on the basis of the general range of meaning krisis can have in other texts. Anyway, it's a good book, even if you disagree with me about John 5 or any other particular text.

Just to remind you what my other two questions were:

1) Does John 5:28-29 specifically talk about anyone being saved based on faith after death?

2) How does your usage of "dispensation" compare to the Biblical usage of that term?

[Phat8594]

Pity. It's a good book, helpful for getting all Christians to think carefully about the way the Bible uses language.

Exegetical Fallacies is a great book! I definitely think its a must read for any serious student of the Bible.

[Phat8594]

My claim was that reading about exegetical fallacies in general, and the total semantic transfer fallacy in general, might help you see why it's not helpful to ignore the specific way krisis is actually used in John 5 on the basis of the general range of meaning krisis can have in other texts. Anyway, it's a good book, even if you disagree with me about John 5 or any other particular text.

I haven't read the whole discussion, but from what I can gather, what RB is saying here is true:

Its fallacious to determine the meaning of a word in one context, based on its meanings in other contexts.

Most words have a range of meaning; but the particular meaning within a certain text is determined by the context of that specific text...not what it means in other texts.


This fallacy is not specific to Koine Greek, but its seen in language in general. Just think of the English word "field". How many different contexts are there that show a range of meaning.

Field of scientists....Baseball field....A field next to a meadow....to field a group...one's field of vision...etc..etc...I think you get the picture (words can have a range of meaning, but the specific context is what dictates particular meaning).