Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

[LetsObeyChrist]

Yes it was WATER he was comparing: Flood vs Baptism - His other comment was saying that the water of baptism was not to wash our skin or sins away, but as a PLEDGE to God.

Look, if you have that much trouble reading Elizabethan English, you should use a modern English translation, like the ESV.

I am done arguing with you if you can't even read a simple verse correctly. It's a waste of my time. I might as well argue with a stone wall.

Even after you define the answer of a good conscience towards God as a PLEDGE, the pledge doesn't result from water but from preaching.

That's the point. Noah listened to God, those in the boat with him listened to Noah's preaching, and gave the correct answer PLEDGE, they obeyed the message and so were saved.

Christ descended from Heaven, the Incarnate Son of God and preached to humans in spiritual prison, and all who PLEDGE they would believe, are saved by the resurrection of Christ.

Christ descended from the earth, being quickened in the spirit He went and preached to the spirits in prison, and they PLEDGED obedience, therefore they also are saved the resurrection of Christ, He led captivity captive.

Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." (Eph 4:8 NKJ)

Evidently the like figure is not in the water, its in Christ's like actions, our like PLEDGE, and our like salvation.

[Sparko]

King James:

1 Peter 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Modern English (ESV)
20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(NIV)
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

[LetsObeyChrist]

King James:

1 Peter 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Modern English (ESV)
20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

(NIV)
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The ESV isn't so bad, the NIV blew it, Peter expressly says baptism (the Pledge aspect of it, saves), not the water washing.

That refutes your interpretation, the correspondence is in what Christ did, and how He was responded to, not in the water.

[Sparko]

The ESV isn't so bad, the NIV blew it, Peter expressly says baptism (the Pledge aspect of it, saves), not the water washing.

That refutes your interpretation, the correspondence is in what Christ did, and how He was responded to, not in the water.

wow you seem to have reading comprehension problems. You seem intelligent so I can only assume that you are just ignoring anything that disputes your view of things.

Besides, I fail to see how this verse has anything to do with works being a second way to salvation. Even if you are correct, and Jesus was preaching the gospel to those in hell, and they accepted it, it would still be based on faith and not works. You are merely saying people get a second chance to be saved after they die, but you were arguing that you could be saved by WORKS. You have failed to show that.

I am done here.

[hedrick]

Taking my cue from Calvin's commentary, my reading of John 5 is that there are only two sets of people. Believers are exempt from judgement; others are judged. But in 5:29 the separation is not by faith, it's by whether they do good or evil. In the NT, salvation is always by grace, but judgement is always by works. How you reconcile this isn't always very explicit, and in fact there may be several considerations.

* It is assumed that those who have faith will do good works. 5:29 makes it sound like everyone does either all evil or all good. Obviously that's not the case. So in a passage like this, we have to assume that in practice there is a dominant orientation. For Christians that should be good.

* 5:24 seems to say that for believers sin has already been forgiven, so in a judgement by works, God will overlook our evil.

While I'm not sure it applies to this passage, there is another approach to dealing with the judgement by works. 1 Cor 3:15 suggests a judgement of works as applying also to believers. But it's judgement in a different sense than determining who goes to heaven and hell. Rather, judgement is God making things right, rejecting evil and eliminating it. But that need not, and in 1 Cor 3:15 does not, mean that the person being judged is rejected. Rather, the evil is purged.

However John 5:24 is typically read as a different type of judgement, which decides on our eternal fate, not the judging of evil in even believers. Either that or John is explicitly rejecting Paul's concept of a judgement that applies to believers.

[RonC]

salvation is always by grace

Hi H,

Jesus actually taught salvation by faith... he never mentions salvation by grace...

but judgement is always by works. How you reconcile this isn't always very explicit, and in fact there may be several considerations.

* It is assumed that those who have faith will do good works. 5:29 makes it sound like everyone does either all evil or all good. Obviously that's not the case. So in a passage like this, we have to assume that in practice there is a dominant orientation. For Christians that should be good.

You have hit the nail right on the head -- how to reconcile this... often we miss the point – and Jesus could not have made it clearer… there is no separation between faith and works… it is done according to your faith… your faith has made you whole… If we understand this as one aspect of larger teachings we might glimpse that just as a faith in God manifests in “good” works, we can see that faith in anything other than God will manifest in “bad” works… a good tree brings forth good fruit and a bad tree brings forth bad fruit… whatever we believe will manifest… we cannot stop this just as we cannot stop a tree from bringing forth the fruit appropriate to it.or stop the sun from rising… it is a basic metaphysical truth. We choose based on what we believe, we perceive through the lens of what we believe, we raise our children in accordance with what we believe… our choices and actions are a manifestation of what we believe (know the tree by the fruit)… Jesus taught this in deed and in metaphor...

Best,
RonC

[LetsObeyChrist]

Taking my cue from Calvin's commentary, my reading of John 5 is that there are only two sets of people. Believers are exempt from judgement; others are judged. But in 5:29 the separation is not by faith, it's by whether they do good or evil. In the NT, salvation is always by grace, but judgement is always by works. How you reconcile this isn't always very explicit, and in fact there may be several considerations.

* It is assumed that those who have faith will do good works. 5:29 makes it sound like everyone does either all evil or all good. Obviously that's not the case. So in a passage like this, we have to assume that in practice there is a dominant orientation. For Christians that should be good.

* 5:24 seems to say that for believers sin has already been forgiven, so in a judgement by works, God will overlook our evil.

While I'm not sure it applies to this passage, there is another approach to dealing with the judgement by works. 1 Cor 3:15 suggests a judgement of works as applying also to believers. But it's judgement in a different sense than determining who goes to heaven and hell. Rather, judgement is God making things right, rejecting evil and eliminating it. But that need not, and in 1 Cor 3:15 does not, mean that the person being judged is rejected. Rather, the evil is purged.

However John 5:24 is typically read as a different type of judgement, which decides on our eternal fate, not the judging of evil in even believers. Either that or John is explicitly rejecting Paul's concept of a judgement that applies to believers.

The most likely choice is believers are not judged (as John 5:24 says) as to their salvation, but all the rest are...the sheep and goats who failed to believe in Christ in this life, and so are subject to being judged according to their works, precisely as Christ says in John 5:28-29, Mat 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15 etc.