What if Jesus doesn't return for all of the church.

[owen1956]

All of this makes me think, how Satan uses everything to deceive. He even uses the scriptures. Jesus says The sower soweth the word, he also says the devil sows seed.

Since sheep "HEAR" and others do not hear, how is their religion formed? I have an opinion...

First off let me say, I love the scriptures, I think they are from God, and are truth, this truth, is revealed by the author, and the author is to be known. The truth is within the text, explained by the same one who wrote it, if we interpret it; we end up with a private interpretation. The author is greater than the book, yet that doesn't diminish the book, or the truth that it contains.

Today many know the bible, but have never had God become real to them. Most people have never had God make himself known to them even through a beautiful sunset. To most God is just history, or he is way off in space somewhere. The importance is not in experiences, but instead experiencing God. I contend, you have to experienced God. Possibly he opens the scriptures to you, and makes them come alive; they became a "word" of God to you.

It would be like you and I having coffee everyday together, sharing life and all things included. We would age together and become deep friends. We may never have a spiritual experience, but we would definitely experience each other, as Moses experienced God at the tent, when Miriam and Aron spoke against Moses, and God spoke about how He and Moses were friends. Moses experienced God. God was experienced by everyone we read about in the OT and the NT.

You know the parable of the sower, the seeds sown by Jesus, and the seeds sown by the Devil. Those seeds manifest themselves for what they really are. These are people, could be religious, like the pharisees, who were called children of the devil by Jesus. They may be the nicest, sweetest people, but what seed are they of?

I fear that the so-called church, the large visible body that meets on the corner of every city in America is missing God. There are many within this so-called visible church (though fewer in number) that truly belong to Jesus, these are the invisible church. From my point of view, the visible church has sprung up not from experiencing God, but from its exposure to the bible "The Scriptures", but this is not necessarily so, of the invisible church "The Ecklesia".

For example most people throughout history couldn't read, we had no printing presses, and when printed most people couldn't afford the bible, this is seen during the dark ages, yet the ecklesia thrived. How? It wasn't because they had a bible; it was because God was real and made himself known to them. Possibly through someone who had a bible, but probably not.

Brother Lawrence / Laubach; in his book practicing the presence; makes the claim that God became real to him, by seeing a tree losing it leaves, knowing life would again come to the tree the following year.

Here forgive me.... Let me expound more and just be open, even though we don't know each other, possibly we can glean from one another as two who see the forest from different angles?

Could it be, that True and False Christianity...Are both produced by the Bible. Everything is about contrast (light, dark, evil, and good), or it's to express God's glory, and his many attributes...God even created evil for this purposes.

The contrast in Christianity is the true church, and the false church. The invisible ecklesia -vs- the large visible body of people in every church, on every corner. The wheat, and the chaff or tare. The good seed and the bad seed. The Pharisee, and Jesus, sheep and Goats, Light and darkness.

Today is a replay of the life of Jesus in his body singular (the one that died on the cross); now this body "His Body" is plural, many membered...The same prosecutions, torments, dying, will happen in us as it did in him. Now the Pharisees are the religious of today. True Christianity and false Christianity, is so close, to the real church, the real walk, the real life...So close that it could even fool the elect, if that were possible....

So how does God establish the tare, this large so-called church. Do we see it throughout time? Yes, and it all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is in the visible church, and the invisible church, the wheat and tare.

The large visible church exists and is sustained by the visible, tangible, written word (The Bible). They find themselves at home with the text, they can control it, they build laws, rules, religious rituals, and doctrines. By this same knowledge they also remove God, who is Spirit, out of their midst, issues of control, a form of religion, and rules, that denies the power thereof. There is no body ministry, led of God's Spirit.

Do you think this would all be obvious, and plainly visible, or only visible to us by discernment? It had to be hidden, even from those who were in the midst of it, or else they would not have participated. Both sides, real and false are hidden, even from themselves. If not hidden, you couldn't get anyone to participate in this plan of God.

I'm not against these people; most are genuine, nice, sweet people. But we are discussing truth here. Now God is revealing these things to us, and getting ready to reveal us to each other, to reveal the true church to herself, to reveal the false church to the true.

While most of the members of both groups are wonderful people and well intentioned, the visible false church, is still like the Pharisees of old. They search the scriptures daily, but won't come to Christ, that they might have life. In fact they were never destined to life, this is what the scriptures say, the body / the ecklesia / the invisible church has life, they were destined to life, from the beginning.

The true body, the ecklesia exist by "the word", they know a hidden walk, they know the masters voice. This has got to be the common denominator throughout time, since many could not read, and the few that could read, didn't have a copy of the bible. Yet the Ecklesia flourished, even in the dark ages, and in countries that never allowed sacred texts, like China, and Russia...

Today both flourish, and this thing called church, or churchianity, has said to all, we represent God. But they do not, and God is getting ready to show this world, his true church, the ecklesia....God's mercy, and the world demand such an event, to rid God, of the stain of falsehood. Whether that be TV preachers, or even all the pain caused to so many in the name of God by so-called Christianity, which was NOT Christianity, but instead, it was this false church the large, visible church, this system.

God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, "churchianity". He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.

There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...We must experience God.

So there is no way they can fellowship with you, or you with them, if you are part of that invisible "REAL" church, for what fellowship does light have with darkness. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and "do church" with all the people there, it will not work.

Remember Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice", and man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat, ETC. You see what I mean? "The word of the Lord" via "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.

The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the bible about hearing, hardly anything about reading. Everything written in the bible was spoken before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.

We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, to hear the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible, even though God has used the scriptures to do so on occasion. Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a position by this false church, where they have taken the place of God.

Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....It just will not make sense...

As far as people hearing "The word" vs studying "The scriptures" I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word. God also speaks apart from the scriptures, remember God spoke to Adam and Moses before there was a written bible.

Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and we have placed the bible above "The Word"...

I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, nor the Jewish people the Torah. But instead by the Spirit / the word / His breath...His words of promise, leading us into all truth?

We have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leaning only on "The book". I love the scriptures, and I have several bibles. BUT we must not elevate the bible above God, and I'm afraid that is what many churches (people) have done.

The "Word" and "The bible" are not one and the same...The common denominator throughout time Has been God reaching out to man, possibly by a sunset, or a person who was "LED" of the spirit to witnesses to you, or God speaks to you, but God has not, at all times used the bible. Of course there are times that the Spirit moves someone, through the use of Scripture, but that is not my point.

What do we say of the first 3000 years of man, until Moses wrote the Torah, where was God? He was doing what he has always done, personally interacting with man.

The faith we have is more than intellectual knowledge, it IS LIFE...Two trees were in the garden; today we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"...

[owen1956]

I am not splitting hairs, we have created confusion by not seeing the difference between the scriptures and the word.

Also as stated in my orig post...

Jesus speaks exclusively of hearing not reading (sheep, voice, led, follow, ETC)...

What do we do with those who could not read: This would include the disciples, the first century church. This was a time when their was no bible except the torah, and the prophets, which people didn't possess a copy of their own. Then of course in the dark ages, and prior to the printing press, people had no bibles, and the masses could not read (because of illiteracy, and the price of the printed text).

The common denominator, for all these saints and even the prophets of the OT is "THE WORD" "The spoken word"...It's all they had...

The spoken word is judged by us in that it can never disagree with "GODS INTERPRETATION / REVELATION" of the written text. NT and OT...

Yet this agreement is based upon the proper interpretation. God's interpretation will always be right. But for you to obtain this proper interpretation, it requires Revelation / Leading / Communion / Fellowship / Hearing the word, as spoken to us by the Spirit...

Your private interpretation of the meaning of the text, just will not do! So do we as Christians have revelation of the scriptures? Do we hear His voice, are we His sheep?

What if we go into a period of time when persecution prohibits us from having the scriptures? What happens then to YOUR Christianity?

How did the Ecklesia thrive in the dark ages? How about in China, Russia? All this thriving "WITHOUT A BOOK"...

Who would you rather be, one who thrived without the book as we see in the first century, dark ages, China, Russia, and prior to the printing press...Or one who could only thrive as long as they possessed the book!

[barley]

Well then God's word, the scriptures would be in error.

[jo7241974]

Welcome, Owen1956!

It has been several months since I have spent any time on Tweb. What a wonderful time to come back and take a look at some of the threads; as I found this one. I believe that you are on to something which many do not see or hear.

I also love the scriptures - but not in the way most like to boast about their scholarly knowledge of it. Rather, I hear the Words and Truth as revealed to me by the Holy Ghost. He is the only source of spiritual truth on the earth. This is actually what the Bible teaches; however many do not understand what this means. If the Holy Ghost is the source of all spiritual truth on the earth, then how can the Bible also be the source?!! This, of course, is not possible - though most of Christendom would argue this simple truth. Jesus tried to teach us; but He could not convert anyone. It was the Holy Ghost who did the witnessing and converting of the relatively few who were converted. Even Jesus' physical walk in the flesh could not convince and convert those who got to meet Him; nor could His miracles. As He told Peter,

Matthew 16:13-17 (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

I especially enjoy Paul's teachings because he spent a lot of time trying to teach what you have spoken of. In fact, it is my belief that the only real reason that Paul's teachings were made canon, is because the physical church did not hear the hidden messages he was trying to reveal in the hopes we would understand them spiritually. If the physical church had any idea that his messages included a wealth of spiritual understanding to be had, they would have left his teachings out because those who put canon together were want to control the physical church's understanding in accordance with man's interpretation of scripture.

Oh, to find another whose spiritual eyes and ears have been opened for the chance to edify one another; and to rejoice!!!

Love,

jo

[goliah]

"today we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"... "

I would suggest that is a false choice. Knowledge should be Life! Ignorance should be death. If these expressions, Life and death, are being used as Biblical metaphor, that would suggest that greater 'knowledge' still exists, yet be discovered?