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Skepticisim Is Not An Argument

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  • Skepticisim Is Not An Argument

    Is skepticism ever unreasonable?

    The link can be found here.

    ------

    Do you need a reason for your doubt? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Many times I get caught up in debates on miracles and that leads to an automatic skepticism by many people. After all, we live in an age of science and in this age of science, we know things the ancients didn't know. Therefore, we know that miracles don't happen.

    I like to point out to these people that they even knew back then that dead people stay dead, people don't walk on water, food doesn't instantly multiply to feed 5,000+ people, it's not expected for blind people to see and paralyzed people to walk, and of course, virgins don't give birth. (Although I do affirm the virgin birth.) If people insist at this point, I ask when it was that science made these great discoveries that they didn't know about. It's also helpful to ask which branch of science has disproven miracles.

    The problem that often comes up is that someone will just say I'm a skeptic but without giving any basis for their own position. If we as Christians are often obligated to give a reason for the hope that lies within us, why should our intellectual opponents not give a reason for the doubt that lies within them. Please note that I am not saying all doubt is wrong. I am suggesting instead that we talk about a reasonable doubt.

    For instance, let's suppose you say that you will not believe in miracles because you have never experienced one. Of course, if you did experience one and you knew it, you would likely believe in miracles, but if you haven't, do you really want to say the only way you will believe in a miracle is if you yourself witness one? If that's the case, then no amount of arguing and persuasion is going to work with you. You've already decided at the outset a miracle can't happen because you've never experienced it. (It's also interesting that other people's experience in the case of miracles is invalid, but your experience of not having one is completely allowable!)

    It also won't help then if it's automatically decided that any story that you hear is just someone being gullible or mistaken or lying. No doubt, people are often mistaken about miracles, but the argument against miracles depends on every single case being an error in some way. Chesterton told us years ago that the theist believes in the miracle, rightly or wrongly, because of the evidence. The skeptic disbelieves, rightly or wrongly, because he has a dogma against them.

    So let's take a work like Craig Keener's massive two volumes on miracles documenting miracles done all over the world. For the skeptic, every single miracle in there has to be false. For myself, all of them could be false and I could still have a case for miracles because I have arguments for theism and I have arguments for the resurrection.

    So when pressed, what needs to be asked is why is someone being skeptical? What is behind the skepticism? Note also this can go both ways. Christians can be unreasonable in their skepticism of positions that disagree with them. I do not encourage Christians to say you will only disbelieve in the resurrection if you see the bones of Jesus. If Jesus did not rise, his bones are likely long gone and even if they aren't, you really don't have much way of identifying them. Set the bar reasonable. I just ask for a better explanation for the rise of the early church than the one the church itself gave that better explains the data.

    Skepticism can be good. We should not be gullible and credulous, but at the same time, we need to be reasonable even in skepticism. If we demand our own personal experience, we're not really entering into the discussion fairly and saying that intellectual arguments won't convince us. That's hardly being reasonable.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    Last edited by Apologiaphoenix; 06-28-2017, 09:28 AM.

  • #2
    Well, people of every religion have their miracle claims. Who's to say the ones supporting Christianity are true and those supporting Islam or Hinduism are false? Dramatic supernatural occurrences to a wide audience don't seem to happen, at least not in the developed world in the modern day.
    Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

    "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

    "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

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    • #3
      That assumes that all events are equally likely and have equal amounts of evidence. Doesn't work that well.

      Feel free to come up with a better explanation for the rise of the early Christian church than the one that the church itself gave.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
        Well, people of every religion have their miracle claims.
        Not especially. Even Muslims in, e.g., Syria pray before Christian wonder-working icons; Islam doesn't have much of a miracle tradition.
        Who's to say the ones supporting Christianity are true and those supporting Islam or Hinduism are false? Dramatic supernatural occurrences to a wide audience don't seem to happen, at least not in the developed world in the modern day.
        Most Christians will quite freely accept that miracles can occur in other religions; they merely attribute them to satan. The developed world in the modern day tends to be rather skeptical that miracles can happen - and even Jesus Himself worked few miracles in a hostile environment.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #5
          Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
          Well, people of every religion have their miracle claims. Who's to say the ones supporting Christianity are true and those supporting Islam or Hinduism are false? Dramatic supernatural occurrences to a wide audience don't seem to happen, at least not in the developed world in the modern day.
          It is legit to doubt for what ever reason you like. If you care to discuss you need to be able to support your view, not just claim that because you doubt that is an argument.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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          • #6
            This is a strawman. Skepticism is not supposed to be an argument. Skepticism is the process of applying reason and critical thinking to determine validity. It is the process of finding a supported conclusion, not the justification of a preconceived conclusion.

            The way to get to truth is to know what facts are, to let the facts speak for themselves and avoid the temptation to place your preferred interpretation on the facts. Truth is something that is discovered and we can come at it from different directions and at different times.

            I have pointed out before that if the entire world’s knowledge was lost and human beings started investigating the world from scratch, eventually we would discover the same truths that we now know. So called ‘revealed’ truths would stay lost and that’s how we can know now that they are not true.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

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            • #7
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              This is a strawman. Skepticism is not supposed to be an argument. Skepticism is the process of applying reason and critical thinking to determine validity. It is the process of finding a supported conclusion, not the justification of a preconceived conclusion.
              Ideally, yes. In practice, I have yet to meet a skeptic who is not majoring in justification of their preconceived conclusion.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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              • #8
                Skepticism, minus argument, is just entrenched doubt.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

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                • #9
                  You see, defending the faith is not the same thing as defending the truth. This is obvious because there are many religions but there is only one truth. Now, you might argue that different religions employ different descriptions of the one truth. In that case why would any religion defend its faith vigorously it being only one of many similar viewpoints? What we see is that many religions share the same fault which is that they conflate faith and truth. They make the baseless claim that their faith is true and thereby block or limit their access to truth. An apologist is someone who wears a blindfold while claiming to see more clearly than anyone else.

                  It is better to know and accept our limits than to hold to false ideas. This is especially true when the consequences of failing to recognize the truth are potentially serious. Therefore, we have a duty to encourage the faithful to use their reason and to place truth above faith in the hierarchy of virtues. Skepticism will set you free.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    You see, defending the faith is not the same thing as defending the truth. This is obvious because there are many religions but there is only one truth. Now, you might argue that different religions employ different descriptions of the one truth. In that case why would any religion defend its faith vigorously it being only one of many similar viewpoints? What we see is that many religions share the same fault which is that they conflate faith and truth. They make the baseless claim that their faith is true and thereby block or limit their access to truth. An apologist is someone who wears a blindfold while claiming to see more clearly than anyone else.

                    It is better to know and accept our limits than to hold to false ideas. This is especially true when the consequences of failing to recognize the truth are potentially serious. Therefore, we have a duty to encourage the faithful to use their reason and to place truth above faith in the hierarchy of virtues. Skepticism will set you free.
                    Do you have any evidence that there is no God? Do you have any evidence that the Christian God is not true? Or are you just rattling like Tassman and JimL?
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      Or are you just rattling like Tassman and JimL?
                      I'd say he's more straight up trolling than invincibly stupid.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I'd say he's more straight up trolling than invincibly stupid.
                        firstfloor at least has a sense of humor.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Ideally, yes. In practice, I have yet to meet a skeptic who is not majoring in justification of their preconceived conclusion.
                          Then you haven't been paying attention. There are plenty on this site that do stick to their preconceived conclusion, but there are plenty of us that worked out that conclusion the hard way. It might be harder to tell that with the current state of this site, but it's still true.
                          I'm not here anymore.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            That assumes that all events are equally likely and have equal amounts of evidence. Doesn't work that well.
                            It doesn't assume any such thing. Nothing about likelihood or amounts of evidence is required to state the fact that miracle claims are nearly universal.


                            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                            Feel free to come up with a better explanation for the rise of the early Christian church than the one that the church itself gave.
                            You mean people misinterpreting things or having others believe their (possibly unintentionally) exaggerated stories? Because conspiracy theories and fringe groups thrive on oppression? You don't need real miracles or even a real Jesus to have the growth of a belief system, any more than you need Moroni to have actually visited Mr. Smith.
                            I'm not here anymore.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                              Then you haven't been paying attention. There are plenty on this site that do stick to their preconceived conclusion, but there are plenty of us that worked out that conclusion the hard way. It might be harder to tell that with the current state of this site, but it's still true.
                              With all due respect, I HAVE been paying attention - since before this site even existed.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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