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Skepticisim Is Not An Argument

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Do you have any evidence that there is no God? Do you have any evidence that the Christian God is not true? Or are you just rattling like Tassman and JimL?
    There is no question that people have gods and they call their god, God the Father and other things. That much is real and true.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      It doesn't assume any such thing. Nothing about likelihood or amounts of evidence is required to state the fact that miracle claims are nearly universal.
      Yes it does. Saying the accounts are universal does not say anything about the evidences put forward for an individual claim. It only works if you assume a priori that all accounts have equal evidence.


      You mean people misinterpreting things or having others believe their (possibly unintentionally) exaggerated stories? Because conspiracy theories and fringe groups thrive on oppression? You don't need real miracles or even a real Jesus to have the growth of a belief system, any more than you need Moroni to have actually visited Mr. Smith.
      Okay. Feel free to give an explanation exactly of what happened that takes into account the data agreed to even by skeptical scholars.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        There is no question that people have gods and they call their god, God the Father and other things. That much is real and true.
        But oddly, if I ask you what this god of yours is, it turns out that you are not so intimately acquainted but have to answer by reading your ancient Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I think that the true answer is closer to home.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

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        • #19
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          There is no question that people have gods and they call their god, God the Father and other things. That much is real and true.
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          But oddly, if I ask you what this god of yours is, it turns out that you are not so intimately acquainted but have to answer by reading your ancient Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I think that the true answer is closer to home.
          Okay, so you are just rattling.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            Okay, so you are just rattling.
            Suppose you claimed that there existed a species of moon frogs. First, having made the claim, you have the burden of proof. Nevertheless, you ask me whether I have any evidence that your claim is false. I don’t need to own that problem, but being generous, I might suggest what evidence we could look for that would support your claim. So, we agree that frog footprints on the moon’s surface ought to be plentiful if moon frogs exist. We look for footprints and find none. Then you say, because moving the goalposts is your defensive strategy, that moon frogs are so light on their feet, and the moon’s gravity so slight that they do not leave foot prints, and besides, we looked in the wrong place. …. And on to round two, and three, etc.

            This is to illustrate the problem with your question. The invisible Christian God is like the moon frog.

            As I see it, the religious carry about an empty sack full of the greatest treasure they can imagine. Their joy is real even if the treasure is not. I’m not sure that it matters much except that the religious are so enamored with their treasure that they insist that everyone else should have it too or be condemned for not carrying an empty sack of their own. [at least, this is the excuse they give for their unfortunate attitude towards those not of their caste] Just as their treasure is invisible to the outsider, the wrongness of the religion is invisible to the religious.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

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            • #21
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              Suppose you claimed that there existed a species of moon frogs. First, having made the claim, you have the burden of proof. Nevertheless, you ask me whether I have any evidence that your claim is false. I don’t need to own that problem, but being generous, I might suggest what evidence we could look for that would support your claim. So, we agree that frog footprints on the moon’s surface ought to be plentiful if moon frogs exist. We look for footprints and find none. Then you say, because moving the goalposts is your defensive strategy, that moon frogs are so light on their feet, and the moon’s gravity so slight that they do not leave foot prints, and besides, we looked in the wrong place. …. And on to round two, and three, etc.

              This is to illustrate the problem with your question. The invisible Christian God is like the moon frog.

              As I see it, the religious carry about an empty sack full of the greatest treasure they can imagine. Their joy is real even if the treasure is not. I’m not sure that it matters much except that the religious are so enamored with their treasure that they insist that everyone else should have it too or be condemned for not carrying an empty sack of their own. [at least, this is the excuse they give for their unfortunate attitude towards those not of their caste] Just as their treasure is invisible to the outsider, the wrongness of the religion is invisible to the religious.
              Since Christianity far predates you, the burden is your own. You're the one making claims about otherwise established fact.

              Also, your example is silly - neither participant has established what moon frogs are like - if the silly things have wings they may never leave foot prints - ditto if they live under moon dust. You criticize the counter argument but incorrectly - the nature of moon frogs wasn't pre-established. Without that, you have an open door to counterarguments based on the actual nature of the silly things.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                Yes it does. Saying the accounts are universal does not say anything about the evidences put forward for an individual claim. It only works if you assume a priori that all accounts have equal evidence.
                That's just nonsense. It doesn't matter if they all have equal evidence. Miracle claims in the same religion don't even have equal evidence. You're setting a bar your own religion doesn't pass.


                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                Okay. Feel free to give an explanation exactly of what happened that takes into account the data agreed to even by skeptical scholars.
                You mean the part where people die willingly for strongly held beliefs, like suicide bombers and kamikazes? Or do you mean the part where people can convince others of their beliefs even when those beliefs are downright delusional? I don't know what hurdle you think exists here. People aren't rational beings. A claim that someone would only do X if Y is true just doesn't work IRL. When it comes to martyrs, examples of that principle abound.
                I'm not here anymore.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Since Christianity far predates you, the burden is your own. You're the one making claims about otherwise established fact.


                  What about 'predates' comes out to 'established fact'? That's not how it works.
                  I'm not here anymore.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    With all due respect, I HAVE been paying attention - since before this site even existed.
                    You've just been ignoring all the ones that don't fit your narrative? I honestly find it hard to believe you actually think what you posted.
                    I'm not here anymore.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                      That's just nonsense. It doesn't matter if they all have equal evidence. Miracle claims in the same religion don't even have equal evidence. You're setting a bar your own religion doesn't pass.
                      Correct. The turning of water into wine doesn't have the same amount of evidence as the resurrection of Jesus. I agree. Who said all miracles have to have equal evidence?


                      You mean the part where people die willingly for strongly held beliefs, like suicide bombers and kamikazes?
                      No.

                      Or do you mean the part where people can convince others of their beliefs even when those beliefs are downright delusional?
                      No.

                      I don't know what hurdle you think exists here. People aren't rational beings. A claim that someone would only do X if Y is true just doesn't work IRL. When it comes to martyrs, examples of that principle abound.
                      I never said anything about martyrs. I said explaining the data about the historical Jesus that is agreed to even by skeptical scholars. Would you like to try again? This time maybe you can deal with what I said instead of postulating several things I didn't say.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                        You've just been ignoring all the ones that don't fit your narrative? I honestly find it hard to believe you actually think what you posted.
                        Well, no. I find that the skepticism of most tends to be less than well grounded in fact, no matter what a posteriori arguments they may use.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post


                          What about 'predates' comes out to 'established fact'? That's not how it works.
                          The counter claim is his - and I wasn't feeling generous.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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