Originally posted by Jedidiah
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Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
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Skepticisim Is Not An Argument
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“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostIt doesn't assume any such thing. Nothing about likelihood or amounts of evidence is required to state the fact that miracle claims are nearly universal.
You mean people misinterpreting things or having others believe their (possibly unintentionally) exaggerated stories? Because conspiracy theories and fringe groups thrive on oppression? You don't need real miracles or even a real Jesus to have the growth of a belief system, any more than you need Moroni to have actually visited Mr. Smith.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThere is no question that people have gods and they call their god, God the Father and other things. That much is real and true.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThere is no question that people have gods and they call their god, God the Father and other things. That much is real and true.Originally posted by firstfloor View PostBut oddly, if I ask you what this god of yours is, it turns out that you are not so intimately acquainted but have to answer by reading your ancient Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I think that the true answer is closer to home.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostOkay, so you are just rattling.
This is to illustrate the problem with your question. The invisible Christian God is like the moon frog.
As I see it, the religious carry about an empty sack full of the greatest treasure they can imagine. Their joy is real even if the treasure is not. I’m not sure that it matters much except that the religious are so enamored with their treasure that they insist that everyone else should have it too or be condemned for not carrying an empty sack of their own. [at least, this is the excuse they give for their unfortunate attitude towards those not of their caste] Just as their treasure is invisible to the outsider, the wrongness of the religion is invisible to the religious.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostSuppose you claimed that there existed a species of moon frogs. First, having made the claim, you have the burden of proof. Nevertheless, you ask me whether I have any evidence that your claim is false. I don’t need to own that problem, but being generous, I might suggest what evidence we could look for that would support your claim. So, we agree that frog footprints on the moon’s surface ought to be plentiful if moon frogs exist. We look for footprints and find none. Then you say, because moving the goalposts is your defensive strategy, that moon frogs are so light on their feet, and the moon’s gravity so slight that they do not leave foot prints, and besides, we looked in the wrong place. …. And on to round two, and three, etc.
This is to illustrate the problem with your question. The invisible Christian God is like the moon frog.
As I see it, the religious carry about an empty sack full of the greatest treasure they can imagine. Their joy is real even if the treasure is not. I’m not sure that it matters much except that the religious are so enamored with their treasure that they insist that everyone else should have it too or be condemned for not carrying an empty sack of their own. [at least, this is the excuse they give for their unfortunate attitude towards those not of their caste] Just as their treasure is invisible to the outsider, the wrongness of the religion is invisible to the religious.
Also, your example is silly - neither participant has established what moon frogs are like - if the silly things have wings they may never leave foot prints - ditto if they live under moon dust. You criticize the counter argument but incorrectly - the nature of moon frogs wasn't pre-established. Without that, you have an open door to counterarguments based on the actual nature of the silly things."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostYes it does. Saying the accounts are universal does not say anything about the evidences put forward for an individual claim. It only works if you assume a priori that all accounts have equal evidence.
Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostOkay. Feel free to give an explanation exactly of what happened that takes into account the data agreed to even by skeptical scholars.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWith all due respect, I HAVE been paying attention - since before this site even existed.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostThat's just nonsense. It doesn't matter if they all have equal evidence. Miracle claims in the same religion don't even have equal evidence. You're setting a bar your own religion doesn't pass.
You mean the part where people die willingly for strongly held beliefs, like suicide bombers and kamikazes?
Or do you mean the part where people can convince others of their beliefs even when those beliefs are downright delusional?
I don't know what hurdle you think exists here. People aren't rational beings. A claim that someone would only do X if Y is true just doesn't work IRL. When it comes to martyrs, examples of that principle abound.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostYou've just been ignoring all the ones that don't fit your narrative? I honestly find it hard to believe you actually think what you posted.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
What about 'predates' comes out to 'established fact'? That's not how it works."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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