Split from " T.D. Jakes - Oneness Pentecostal..."

[One Bad Pig]

Americian Christianity in all its forms, imo, is increasingly sympathetic towards Oneness pentecostalism, but I think that is only a trend governed by tokenism = token christianity = those mindless enough to vote for tea-party types (or generally for most republican candidates) - I'm not American, so apart from the disruption that the institution of American "christian" Talibanism would have on world economics and social stability, I have no interest in USA politics.

You clearly have no understanding of USA politics, so please stop talking about it. Thanks.

ETA: Have your views on the Trinity changed from this old thread of yours?

[apostoli]

You clearly have no understanding of USA politics, so please stop talking about it. Thanks.

As an outsider looking in, I consider American "christian" politicians the least likely people to be Christian in their outlook. As for my commentary, I was of the understanding that free speach belongs to all people in the American ideal (?)

ETA: Have your views on the Trinity changed from this old thread of yours?

Sure has! Six, or seven years ago I was at an impasse, and needed intelligent discussion to settle my thoughts. Back in 2005 I decided to argue from an Arian viewpoint to see if it was viable and became involved in discussion with Pythagoras (an extreme Arian) and Alam (a subordordinationist), so many of my ideas at the time have to be read in that context. I miss the intelligent discussions I had with those guys as opposed to the tripe I often encounter here at TWEB from the unwashed - such should consider consulting scripture and doing some accademic research before leting go with unuseful diatribes.

In anycase, those discussions of the past, over the intervening years, lead me to read Augustine, Aquinas, Aristotle and a heap of Greek and Latin fathers, and I came to the conclusion that on the basis of the NT witness Trinitarianism is the most viable dogma - and if you review my posts for 2005 you'll notice Idid a Basel the great and came to the conclusion very quickly, which antagonised my correspondents extremely quickly. It was a curious occurance, I started from a pretense of refuting Trinitarianism as I understood it, and found myself involuntarily defending it! Once I realised that fact, the rest is history...mind you the form of Trinitarianism I adhere to is fully in accord with the edicts of Nicea and in full accord with that proclaimed by the RCC, EOC, ROC, COC & OOC (99% of Christianity), and may not be in accord with various American inventions...

[One Bad Pig]

As an outsider looking in, I consider American "christian" politicians the least likely people to be Christian in their outlook. As for my commentary, I was of the understanding that free speach belongs to all people in the American ideal (?)

Quite - but you'll understand if I get a bit peeved when someone from outside dismisses my views as mindless and extremist. You don't know the culture, and your news is filtered by people who are overwhelmingly left-wing Democrats in outlook.

Sure has! Six, or seven years ago I was at an impasse, and needed intelligent discussion to settle my thoughts. Back in 2005 I decided to argue from an Arian viewpoint to see if it was viable and became involved in discussion with Pythagoras (an extreme Arian) and Alam (a subordordinationist), so many of my ideas at the time have to be read in that context. I miss the intelligent discussions I had with those guys as opposed to the tripe I often encounter here at TWEB from the unwashed - such should consider consulting scripture and doing some accademic research before leting go with unuseful diatribes.

In anycase, those discussions of the past, over the intervening years, lead me to read Augustine, Aquinas, Aristotle and a heap of Greek and Latin fathers, and I came to the conclusion that on the basis of the NT witness Trinitarianism is the most viable dogma - and if you review my posts for 2005 you'll notice Idid a Basel the great and came to the conclusion very quickly, which antagonised my correspondents extremely quickly. It was a curious occurance, I started from a pretense of refuting Trinitarianism as I understood it, and found myself involuntarily defending it! Once I realised that fact, the rest is history...mind you the form of Trinitarianism I adhere to is fully in accord with the edicts of Nicea and in full accord with that proclaimed by the RCC, EOC, ROC, COC & OOC (99% of Christianity), and may not be in accord with various American inventions...

[apostoli]

Quite - but you'll understand if I get a bit peeved when someone from outside dismisses my views as mindless and extremist. You don't know the culture, and your news is filtered by people who are overwhelmingly left-wing Democrats in outlook.

Having worked for an American company for many years I am very familiar with the culture at a political and corporate level...and comparitive to other cultures, in my experience it ain't a pretty sight...

I take your point on 'left" leaning ideals, but extreme rightism is what led to WWII and as an outsider looking in, this is where I see USA politics heading...hence my reference to the christian taliban in America (eg: the tea party). In my school years studing economics, a favourite reference was to the socio-poli-eco predicament. Basically, what that means that when an economy is in decline there is a political movement towards conservatism, when things are going well there is a movement towards liberalism. Somewhere along the line in the last thirty years my country has moved to equilibrium where the two main parties are almost indisguishable, both have middle of the road approaches, hence extremist minor parties have arisen which has had a destabilising effect on our government...

In my country the "left" was created as a christian movement to prevent the exploitation of workers by the "right", so after a long hard fight, we have social justice and one of the strongest economies in the modern world. As you contemplate your politics, I encourage you to put chistianity into your equation and not think about what is in your wallet...

[One Bad Pig]

Having worked for an American company for many years I am very familiar with the culture at a political and corporate level...and comparitive to other cultures, in my experience it ain't a pretty sight...

I take your point on 'left" leaning ideals, but extreme rightism is what led to WWII and as an outsider looking in, this is where I see USA politics heading...hence my reference to the christian taliban in America (eg: the tea party).

In other words, you have no clue, despite your protestations to the contrary. You are so far out in left field I don't know where to begin. The extreme rightism leading to WWII was in favor of the police state. The Tea Party (which is not extreme right to begin with - ever heard of the John Birch Society?) has a strong infusion of libertarianism. Those don't mix well.

In my school years studing economics, a favourite reference was to the socio-poli-eco predicament. Basically, what that means that when an economy is in decline there is a political movement towards conservatism, when things are going well there is a movement towards liberalism. Somewhere along the line in the last thirty years my country has moved to equilibrium where the two main parties are almost indisguishable, both have middle of the road approaches, hence extremist minor parties have arisen which has had a destabilising effect on our government...

In my country the "left" was created as a christian movement to prevent the exploitation of workers by the "right", so after a long hard fight, we have social justice and one of the strongest economies in the modern world.

Liberal policies have caused our economy to crater, and are doing a bang-up job of hindering its recovery.

<Sarcasm>

Yes, let's become better clones of the modern welfare state, even as example after example begins imploding under unsustainable debt levels.

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

As you contemplate your politics, I encourage you to put chistianity into your equation and not think about what is in your wallet...

How about I think about both, like I already do?

[apostoli]

In other words, you have no clue, despite your protestations to the contrary. You are so far out in left field I don't know where to begin. The extreme rightism leading to WWII was in favor of the police state. The Tea Party (which is not extreme right to begin with - ever heard of the John Birch Society?) has a strong infusion of libertarianism. Those don't mix well.

Liberal policies have caused our economy to crater, and are doing a bang-up job of hindering its recovery.

<Sarcasm>

Yes, let's become better clones of the modern welfare state, even as example after example begins imploding under unsustainable debt levels.

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

How about I think about both, like I already do?

I would encourage you to look into the economic credentials of your society...imo, your nation is the least democratic of all nations...something for you to think about...

Ten plus years ago, while studying drum theory, I did an analysis of the African, Portugese, Spanish, Bristish and American slave systems. America was the only "civilisation" that had a chattel mentality, whereby a dog had greater rights than a slave. Imo, not a lot has changed...consider Apples latest controversary regarding the treatment of its "slaves" in China, or Niki, or IBM or pick an American multinational company...

I am inclined to remind you of Jesus' warning regarding those that do not take care of the hungry and cold. A predicament endemic in the USA because of your rightest labour laws whereby profit is put above people. My country is not a lot different but at least my country attempts to practice some semblance of Christian ideals! What you probably define as leftist qualities!

[Adrift]

I would encourage you to look into the economic credentials of your society...imo, your nation is the least democratic of all nations...something for you to think about...

Ten plus years ago, while studying drum theory, I did an analysis of the African, Portugese, Spanish, Bristish and American slave systems. America was the only "civilisation" that had a chattel mentality, whereby a dog had greater rights than a slave. Imo, not a lot has changed...consider Apples latest controversary regarding the treatment of its "slaves" in China, or Niki, or IBM or pick an American multinational company...

I am inclined to remind you of Jesus' warning regarding those that do not take care of the hungry and cold. A predicament endemic in the USA because of your rightest labour laws whereby profit is put above people. My country is not a lot different but at least my country attempts to practice some semblance of Christian ideals! What you probably define as leftist qualities!

If you want to read about brutal slave conditions, read about the French slave trade sometime. But anyways, can we move the political garbage to the civics or political science forums or something? TD Jakes embracing orthodox trinitarianism has nothing directly to do with US or world politics (in fact, it doesn't really have a whole lot to do with "unorthodox" theology come to think of it).

[apostoli]

If you want to read about brutal slave conditions, read about the French slave trade sometime. But anyways, can we move the political garbage to the civics or political science forums or something? TD Jakes embracing orthodox trinitarianism has nothing directly to do with US or world politics (in fact, it doesn't really have a whole lot to do with "unorthodox" theology come to think of it).

I agree and disagree. Slavery = exploitation of any underclass is counter to christian values. The USA is one of the few nations in the modern world that does not gaurantee a living wage, and in contradiction to christian values does support the rich rather than the poor. Look at the recent release of the tax contributions of your republican candidates...not a good look...

Imo, the issue at hand is not about dogmatics but about morality...

Worldwide, modalism is taking a major hold via their "pop festivels"...an attractive option for any young person who is devoid of thought... TD Jakes conversion required thought, something (thought) in my preception (thought) is avoided by many...

[apostoli]

If you want to read about brutal slave conditions, read about the French slave trade sometime..

All slave systems were/are brutal but none moreso than that devoloped in the USA. Consider that in the French sstem slaves could ultimately buy their freedom. Consider the diversity of the New Orleans sstem of black prejudice..it isn't a secret that talented slaves were sent to France for advanced education...now contrast that with the experience of the Carolinas...America is the only country known to have bred human beings to be slaves...

Not a lot has changed...

[lilpixieofterror]

I agree and disagree. Slavery = exploitation of any underclass is counter to christian values. The USA is one of the few nations in the modern world that does not gaurantee a living wage, and in contradiction to christian values does support the rich rather than the poor. Look at the recent release of the tax contributions of your republican candidates...not a good look...

What is a 'living wage' and why do you believe that is a 'Christian value'? One of the things that drive up the cost of living is setting a 'min wage' to start with. Did you know that? Also, you should see the tax contributions of our democrat candidates, they are not any better. They just are better at acting like they are blue collar works, when the truth is, they are as white collar and clueless about the real world as they claim republicans are (and if anything, they are more clueless because they actually believe people, in highly technical fields are willing to give their money to the government because the government is so good at managing money ).

Of course this conversation is most likely going to be moved soon, but I would be interested to see your answers and where the Bible says anything about this.

[lilpixieofterror]

All slave systems were/are brutal but none moreso than that devoloped in the USA. Consider that in the French sstem slaves could ultimately buy their freedom. Consider the diversity of the New Orleans sstem of black prejudice..it isn't a secret that talented slaves were sent to France for advanced education...now contrast that with the experience of the Carolinas...America is the only country known to have bred human beings to be slaves...

Not a lot has changed...

Somebody needs to read their history books because those born in slavery in many other cultures, tended to stay slaves and in the US, many slaves did buy/escape for their freedom and made quite a name for themselves.

Bonus questions: Who owned the American Colonies and who is the one's that decided to bring slaves to these colonies, from Africa (often by force) to make them a slave worker force?" Also, what did the US Constitution say about bringing in new slaves? Finally, what nations were involved in the slave trade in the early 19th century and contiuned to bring slaves to the America's after the US made the slave trade illegal?

[apostoli]

Of course this conversation is most likely going to be moved soon, but I would be interested to see your answers and where the Bible says anything about this.

Consider Matthew 25, from verse 34....

[apostoli]

Somebody needs to read their history books because those born in slavery in many other cultures, tended to stay slaves and in the US, many slaves did buy/escape for their freedom and made quite a name for themselves.

Bonus questions: Who owned the American Colonies and who is the one's that decided to bring slaves to these colonies, from Africa (often by force) to make them a slave worker force?" Also, what did the US Constitution say about bringing in new slaves? Finally, what nations were involved in the slave trade in the early 19th century and contiuned to bring slaves to the America's after the US made the slave trade illegal?

you indeed need to read your history books. After the slave uprisings in the Caribbean, the Americas of the time were quick to prohibit the importation of slaves from Africa, instead they undertook a breeding programme, much the same way we now mass produce chickens...

An afro-american fellow I know demands it was all a Jewish conspiracy, but to date I found no evidence of such...

[lilpixieofterror]

Consider Matthew 25, from verse 34....

Most people I've run into and most commentaries I've read tends to say that verse is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and not necessarly Earth as it is before the return of Christ.

[lilpixieofterror]

you indeed need to read your history books.

And this comes from an Auzzie, who most likely has never lived in the US and has not a clue about US history, but yet, thinks he knows more then a native of the US.

After the slave uprisings in the Caribbean, the Americas of the time were quick to prohibit the importation of slaves from Africa, instead they undertook a breeding programme, much the same way we now mass produce chickens...

Have you ever read the US Constitution and last I checked, the Caribbean was under control by European powers through much of the early half of the 19th century, so perhaps you can present actual evidence for your assertions or did you forget the amazing that that people, when they live and work together, to tend to form bonds and men and women do tend to have children? Also, can you show any evidence that US government, in general, encouraged and took part in this 'breeding program? I doubt because you also seem to be forgetting that US Warships (such as the famous USS Constelletion, the USS Saratoga, and the USS Portsmouth which were both part of the USN African Squadron before the US Civil War) attacked slave ships from Africa and freed many slaves from the terrible conditions they endured. You also seem to be ignorant of the history of the nation of Liberia; did you know that nation owes its founding the US? You also seem to be unaware that the European Powers and the ones that started the slave trade when they discovered that enslaving the natives of the America’s didn’t work out because they tended to die in mass numbers from diseases they were not used to and thus, France, the UK, and Belgium had no issue with enslaving the population of Africa and forcing them to work as slaves. I guess not... well... when you can figure out how to get your facts straight; perhaps you can try this again because you do know you can research this, for yourself, right?

An afro-american fellow I know demands it was all a Jewish conspiracy, but to date I found no evidence of such...

Jewish conspiracies are a dime a dozen, much as US government conspiracies are.