Once saved, always saved?

[hawk3312]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

I hope this is the right forum to post this thread.

[Andius]

Welcome Hawk3312. We will do our best to answer your inquiries

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

Mmhh, okay okay. I might comment you that when it comes to existentialism, it is a fairly useless philosophy by my reckoning (since I also embraced for a time). But that be a subject for a another thread.

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

It be usual to think about this, but it is thinking about a problem that is not even the right on in the first place, especially what it constitutes to be "saved".

When Jesus was elaborating on matters of Salvation, he was always framing in terms of a covenant. This means that said covenant is effectively a contract, in many ways, akin to job contracts offered when your applying for post in any company/corporation, there are terms that God is offering, and obligations from both parts (God the patron, you the client). Naturally the major difference is that there is no "a priori" qualification to be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, God the Son, Jesus, already took care of that via the shame on the cross, making ALL eligible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, aka, Salvation.

However, just like any other contract, outright rejection of said contract inmeadiately translates to a termination of said contract, ergo, no salvation for you. It don't matter how the rejection comes by, wether you are not convinced by the Christian thesis (which is most likely your case), or you find the teachings of Jesus repulsive or annoying or inadequate to your lifestyle, it don't matter. A deal is a deal, a contract is contract, a covenant is a covenant. Mind you that I carefully meant "outright rejection of covenant" not "sin". No amount of sin will ever make one lose his/her salvation, only an outright rejection of the covenant will (To borrow an expression from James Patrick Holding).

Nonetheless, the beautiful thing about this offer, is that even though you have rejected outright said covenant, you can still always comeback . The story of the prodigal son comes to mind in here. For as long as you are still alive, salvation is ALWAYS be available, never lost forever (it will only become lost forever after you have died. You could say that Salvation is a sort of "limited time offer", and our lives is the time span for it). Technically, you are no longer "saved", because you are no longer committed to Christ and his teachings, but I can assure you, he will NEVER reject you if you desire to commit whole heartedly as you once did (and it is in my hope that you do, for a returning brother is always a joyful thing). During our life times, there is no such thing "permanent loss of salvation", and that is an encouraging thought by my reckoning. (Of course, that naturally doesn't warrant jumping in and out again of the covenant, because what that proves instead, is that there is 0 commitment of course).

If you wish to see a more detailed explanation about the nature of Christian Salvation, here's a litty ditty that goes a lot more deeper than what I offered, in case you wish to know more.

http://www.tektonics.org/tulip/pers.html

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

Mmhhh, can you care to elaborate a bit? Refferring to the "Why God allows suffering" deal perhaps? And by intellectual doubt, do you refer to the kind of objective doubt in it's verb form (to be uncertain about, consider questionable or unlikely, hesitate to believe)? To differentiate from it's noun and subjective form (feeling of uncertainty about the truth or nature of something).

I hope this is the right forum to post this thread.

It might be.....hehhehehehehehehe

In all seriousness, we will do our best to answer your honest inquiries, honest inquiries being the keyword here. Some people here, Christian and non-Christian alike, make it a bad habit to posit question, not for the sake of honest inquiry and clean debate, but to tick off others and troll, having an a priori commitment to a unwarrantingly biased conclusion/answer (Yourmaster, bertaberts, Pixie, and others come to mind) . So far, you have been well behaved. Keep it up, and I just might let you know where Sparko hides all the best rum in here.

[AVmetro]

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[Littlejoe]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

Hmmm....ok, that pretty much disqualifies you to post in this area without prior approval...sorry!

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

Well, the short answer is no. The only truly saved are those that persevere to the end. If you never turn back so to speak, then you will not be saved.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

That's sad...really!...I remember those dark days of the soul....luckily, I repented and turned back to God, and now live in His Glorious Light. I grew up in church, had very involved christian parents, but turned my back on it for a while. Studied new age stuff, reincarnation, became very agnostic, but one day, woke up and turned back...been pretty happy with that decision for the last 28 yrs.

I hope this is the right forum to post this thread.

Nope, sorry! It will most likely be moved to an appropriate area soon.

and welcome to TWEB!

LJ

[theblueprint_Ni]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

I hope this is the right forum to post this thread.

The short answer to this is no, you did not get saved because you said a prayer and became temporarily infatuated with the idea of a loving God. We don't get saved because we pray a set of words that we think God takes pleasure in hearing. Salvation is a result of turning from sin and believing in Christ as our penal substitution. The whole subject of salvation revolves around the problem that currently dissuades from believing that there is a God or that he is loving. Sin, which introduced evil into this world, is a human fault, not a divine one. We suffer because we sin, not because God enjoys inflicting pain or because he is indifferent. He has provided the answer to sin and suffering through Jesus Christ, and rejecting his solution to this problem is rejecting the heart and plan of God, supposing that somehow you or somebody else would know how to better govern the universe.

Belief in God is hardly an intellectual matter at its core. Philosophical arguments promoting the existence or non-existence of God are equally convincing; neither category falls short of due diligence. The problem of evil, or more appropriately, the problem of sin, will largely determine what we believe because sin is something that we are naturally unwilling to relinquish or acknowledge as such. It's much easier to point the finger back at God and say its his fault rather than humble ourselves and admit that its our fault.

[hawk3312]

Mmhhh, can you care to elaborate a bit? Refferring to the "Why God allows suffering" deal perhaps? And by intellectual doubt, do you refer to the kind of objective doubt in it's verb form (to be uncertain about, consider questionable or unlikely, hesitate to believe)? To differentiate from it's noun and subjective form (feeling of uncertainty about the truth or nature of something).



I

My doubt is definitely of the verbal form that you mentioned. I feel like it would be foolish to get into all of them here, because they include a broad range of topics which I'm sure are better suited for discussion on different threads. I will list a few for you though: I have trouble trusting the Bible as the authentic word of God; I question God's benevolence based on the exclusiveness of Christianity in granting eternal life; the "typical" christian I've interacted with over the years has not reflected the fruits of the spirit, which makes me doubt the presence/existence of the Holy Spirit.

Then there's the problem of suffering, and I would also include within that the existence of hell. To me, they both seem to contradict the whole idea of God loving us and taking a direct interest in our lives.

I've been unable to overcome these intellectual obstacles on my own, and there are very few people around me to honestly discuss them with... That is why I signed up for this website.

Isn't it written somewhere that if we seek the truth, we will find it? Well... I'm seeking.

[Andius]

My doubt is definitely of the verbal form that you mentioned. I feel like it would be foolish to get into all of them here, because they include a broad range of topics which I'm sure are better suited for discussion on different threads. I will list a few for you though: I have trouble trusting the Bible as the authentic word of God; I question God's benevolence based on the exclusiveness of Christianity in granting eternal life; the "typical" christian I've interacted with over the years has not reflected the fruits of the spirit, which makes me doubt the presence/existence of the Holy Spirit.

True, when, you can always feel free to kickoff any thread of your liking to go more into detail. But, for each of the ones you mention, I can tell you a quickie answer or two for your consideration (long story shorts sort of deal, I don't intend for them to be final answers, just starting answers). And a fair warning, you might notice I am quite liberal (in the economic sense), a posture that I am convinced is quite compatible with the greater Christian posture (Christian ethos influences my liberal ethos).

Trusting the Bible as bona fide word of God; In my case, I consider it trustworthy on the basis that Jesus of Nazareth's lents credibility to it whenever he cited it, by virtue of his Resurrection demonstrating that he is genuinely God. Of course, I recognize that begs the question wether the Resurrection happened or not. Within my framework of thought, one proved case naturally ends up giving credibility to another. (Especially since the Resurrection is Jesus' prime credential).

God's benevolance: This presupposes that benevolence by necessities equals indiscriminate free-for-all hand outs. God's benevolence lies in his offer of eternal life, an offer that he will NOT turn anyone down in a priori fashion. It is no different from a High Class social club with the highest of delicious benefits (I'll leave that to your imagination ), and ANYONE can be allowed to join. However said club will still have norms and standards that all members who want in, must follow. God is only exclusitivist in the sense that he alone holds said offering, but anyone is free to take up said offer (it ultimately boils down wether you want in or out, your free choice). Exclusivity in and of itself is NOT a bad thing (and an offer that practically will never exclude anyone from entering is FAR from being, exclusivist of the elitist kind).

btw, I want you to even consider that free-for-all handouts in the name of benevolence usually tends to bring out the worst in human beings (especially human beings that are starving), case in point; http://mises.org/daily/5277 . I myself have witnessed such savagery in relief missions here in my homeland of Guatemala, instead of being grateful and labour to escape their poverty stricken situations, my countrymen tend to turn into decadent and lazy oafs, or savage mongorers (like the video of the Haitians in the link I provided). Those who think that God (or any rich entity) should give indiscriminately, ignore the deadly consequences it can bring out in people. There is intelligent charity, and foolish charity.

Fruits of "typical Christians" : I can sympathize with you on this matter, since your average Christian tends to fall short. However, the demonstrability of a belief system does not rest on the actions of it's practitioners. Were such a thing true, then most religions, philosophies, morals, etc. should be true. Applied practice of an ethos, to a certain extent, tends to be have the nature of subjective knowledge (works for an actor in a context, not true int he absolute sense for all contexts), and yes, even Christian Praxis by itself is not except of this. My tip; put no stock on the credibility of a belief system by what bears fruit, belief systems ain't a business/entrepreneur matter. I can agree to a certain point that if something works, then there is some kernel of truth behind it (to borrow a little an expression used by the American Philosophy, Pragmatism), but what works hardly proves outright wether an entire belief system is true.

Then there's the problem of suffering, and I would also include within that the existence of hell. To me, they both seem to contradict the whole idea of God loving us and taking a direct interest in our lives.

Problem of suffering: It's not really much of a problem. The existence of an omnipotent being does not logically entail that he is obliged to disappear suffering.

Hell: Hell is more like an exile. If one doesn't want "in" on God's offer, then he is not obliged to grant you any favors and boons (including eternal life), pure and simple. There is nothing contradictory of a benevolent God withholding his benevolence on those who reject his offer. Think about it; You charitably decide to help a drunk and oafish, yet needy person with food/shelter/clothing and money, with the condition that you expect said person to drop his alcoholism and laziness, and start acting in industrious and honest fashion (I would include also to honor you with some due praise, but I imagine that sort of deal is not something that is appealing to you. In some cultures, it is actually an expected norm ). However, said person rejects your offer and conditions. How thrilled would you actually be in trying to still give those goods? Goods that are more likely that he will drink away in his stupor (should you choose to give them freely, 0 conditions), wasting them outright. Sounds benevolent no? (So few people are aware the value of hard work and reasonably tough demands, can be a benevolent thing in and of itself).

I've been unable to overcome these intellectual obstacles on my own, and there are very few people around me to honestly discuss them with... That is why I signed up for this website.

We will be more than happy to discuss them with you. We have many good people here in TWeb, and it is our pleasure to respond and discuss with anyone who comes with a spirit of honest inquiry (spirit in the sense of "functional influence", not that "ethereal stuff" some obsess over, heheheh, just to be clear). Littlejoe and Blueprint_Ni above all said smart things. Yes we said mentioned different dimensions of the things you asked about, but they all still be true, especially on the matters of "Salvation".

Isn't it written somewhere that if we seek the truth, we will find it? Well... I'm seeking.

Amongst many Bible verses yes. http://www.openbible.info/topics/seek_truth

But seeking will not naturally entail that truth will just automatically show up at your doorstep. There are times when some predisposed biases will tend to trump said seeking. Truth by it's nature is biased (The truth that 2+2=4 , will naturally exclude the claim that 2+2=5, know what I mean?). So always make sure that whatever assumptions and axioms you hold, that they be held accountable with reason. It's not easy, but hold on to that spirit of seeking, and I hope the only thing you will discriminate, is unreasonableness, lies, and delusions, in order to unbar your way to the truth of any matter you inquire about.

[37818]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

First one is never saved for any kind of work one might do. Prayer, confession and baptism are works. (see Matthew 7:22; Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8,9.)

Now God's promises are good, in which God cannot lie.

Romans 10:12-14a,

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Also the following is true.

1 Timothy 2:11-13,

[It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]: If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Now it is God who does the saving, in one being born of God.

John 1:12,13,

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus stated.

John 6:39.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, . . .

And at another time.

John 10:28,

. . . And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . .

So it is like this, if in fact you were saved then, you are still now. On the other hand if in fact you are not saved now, you were not even saved then, trusting in your prayer rather than the one you prayed to.


There are many religious and lost people who trust in their religious rites instead of Christ. I trust then you were not one of them. But even so if you were, it was then better to find out by denying the faith you had than having a false hope (Matthew 7:21-23.)

1 John 5:12,

He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Romans 8:9,

. . . if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Apostle Paul advises:

2 Corinthians 13:5,

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

The Apostle Peter says this:

2 Peter 1:10,

. . . brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: . . .

see 2 Peter 1:4-11.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

I understand. It was a similar type of anger which caused me to realized that I could not be an atheist, let alone deny the faith. Realizing that I knew God personally (John 17:3. John 14:6. 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Hebrews 9:12, 24. 1 John 2:1, 2.). Cannot deny having known someone that one has known. That stopped me.

[Enow]

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation? Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

Yes, you are still saved. Proof is below:

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

What you are building on that foundation now is wood, stubble, and hay. It will be burned away, but you are still saved. The problem here is that there is a cost as anyone defiling the temple of God, God will destroy: hence becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House. Read 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 & Hebrews 12th chapter on how and why God would chasten those that have fallen away since you had received the kingdom that cannot be removed: that seal of adoption whereby you can call God Father.

So God will judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19) If any doubt that believers will get the boot from attending the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honour in His House, they should consider how Paul taught the church in what excommunication serves God by in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter in dealing with a non-repentant brother.

Now some will contend that this is still about belief and not just any iniquity. Then they would have to deal with this faithful saying in how God will judge His House, including those left behind from the Marriage Supper as applying to that purpose of excommunication.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

That is why by His grace and by His help, this is the call of His disciples in seeking the good of every believer, including former believers to be that vessel unto honour in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory....15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.....24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

If the Lord will, He will direct you back to address those issues of anger towards human suffering and intellectual doubt, or He will direct you to ask Him about it.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But you are still saved because of this promise below.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It's just that not every sealed believer will be ready to attend the Marriage Supper si I strongly advise you to go to Him now for the answers you seek or ask them here.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

2 Corinthians 1:18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

See His promise that you are saved? Then see His promise to answer your doubts. So pray to Him now.

[Foghorn]

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years. In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

Respectfully, what you consider yourself has to be tested to God's word. If you say, you were a Christian, the only reference book you have to prove that is the Bible.

Lets have a look and see what God's word says: They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19.

Jesus said, A tree is known by it's fruit. So, I ask, what is your fruit? You said: "Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist"

Friend, I have to be honest with you, it's not looking very good.

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation?

No one is saved because of a prayer, there are no magic formulas.

Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

God in one being we (believers) can not fall out of love with, but instead, for a believer, our love for Him grows.

For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt.

Friend, the God you believed in was the god your mind created, as Calvin said, the mind is an idol factory. This is why there was no power besides emotionalism and the false gospel of, "everything will be great now that your a Christian." There is a difference between a Christian and one who professes to be a Christian.

I believe you just decided to give Jesus a try, you felt great emotion, your expectations were high, but there was no power there because you believed a false gospel.

There is one thing you can expect if you do become a believer, that is, you will suffer.

To believers, Paul teaches: For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Phil 1:29.

Paul suffered, as we will also: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.Col 1:24.

I urge you friend, take this serious, we are not promised tomorrow; tomorrow throughout the world, many will step into eternity, and if you are not one of Christ's there is only one place to go, and that is hell.

Jesus Christ says: “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Matt 11:28.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:16...


Finally, the answer to the op, Once saved always saved?.........Yes.

But because there is so much more to the meaning, I prefer to use the words, Perseverance of the Saints. Because....The teaching in God's word is, we (believers)are held by His power.


Open your bible, read, that is God's living, holy word. In here you will find Jesus Christ, meditate on His word.

Do not believe what everyone tells you, there are many false gospels, many will give you false expectations, and tell you of how easy the christian life is, there is a prosperity gospel...
“They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.” Jeremiah 6:14.

Jesus saves, and Him alone.


Lastly, Of course, only God knows the heart. If you do belong to Him, you will come back. I urge you, do it soon.

[Benjamin]

To hawk3312... If I may, I would like to also say something that I hope will be of benefit to you. You have asked a very important question and it deserves a careful response. A number of statements have already been given. Some have described a relationship with our Father as a kind of contractual agreement, a membership in a club or the end result of believing an appeal that is not intellectually any more feasible than its alternatives. One contributor has even argued that you are still somehow "saved," in spite of whatever you determine to do with your life, whatever that might now mean. A few passages were cited in support of this thesis, and they deserve to be considered fairly. That is, after all, the central question. Is it the Biblical teaching that you remain in a relationship of adoption and inheritance with the Father? After all, if "Christian teaching" is not defined by reference to the only divine source of revelation available to every Christian, then "Christian teaching" ceases to be objectively verifiable.

In I John, the apostle considers the case of certain men (and perhaps women) who had previously embraced the teaching that Jesus is LORD. At some point, they began to deny this, rejecting the fellowship of believers they once identified with. This is generally like your own story. Of these, John wrote clearly and definitively:

"Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. We know from this that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.
Nevertheless you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you that you do not know the truth, but that you do know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the Father and the Son. Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. The person who confesses the Son has the Father also." (I John 2:18-23, NET)

Our LORD teaches, through John's letter, that those who walk away and reject the Truth are not and never were part of our people. They left our family because they were never a member of it, truly. Although they may have wanted to be once, and although they were no doubt sincere in their own beliefs, and though I do not doubt in the least that they loved and revered the God and the Jesus whom they spoke of often, and whom they prayed to and sang to, they never knew the Father and the Christ whom we love and are committed to. They were never our brothers or sisters, born of the same forgiveness and love. But how can I be so certain of their experiences?

I must answer that first, it is because you defined the parameters of this discussion as a hypothetical. "If the Christian God truly exists," you said, then on the basis of this premise, what would be the reality of your position? That, of course, can only be answered by an appeal to what our GOD has already said. If Christianity is true, then you never belonged to our family. This is what Scripture teaches (I will respond to Enow's genuinely important objections in a moment). Second, because one of the most unfortunate aspects of many stories about salvation, and many appeals made by modern witnesses, is that a crucial question is too often left unspoken. After a life of experience in church settings, I can say with some assurance that the question of motive is strangely underrepresented.

I have no doubt that when you prayed, you prayed sincerely for salvation. I would never downplay your sincerity. How could I? I wasn't there. Nor would I denigrate your experiences, your devotion or your struggles. I believe you when you say that you were "ardent." I have known others who were also, and they certainly were as ardent as any I have known. But in every case, the question of their reasons for belief and for following Christ, why they approached Him in the first place, were always the most pressing problem. And their eventual struggles bore this out.

Biblical ethics are, in fact, defined almost exclusively in terms of motivation. As the LORD says, "All a person’s ways seem right in his own opinion, but the Lord evaluates the motives" (Proverbs 16:2). We see this also in the life of Joseph (Genesis 50:19-21). It is these motivations of the heart, what we "intended" or "meant to do," which are the essence of what is pure and acceptable to GOD as opposed to what is only apparently virtuous. And the heart is notoriously difficult to read, especially one's own, because we are all obviously biased in our own favor. So, the question is: did you adore and trust the LORD because you recognized how precious He is, and with a clear intention, gave yourself to Him and to His beautiful purpose? If you had, of course, then you wouldn't be where you are now. He didn't change, so how could He become less of a treasure, less lovely to you? Whoever you initially wanted, you realized later that our Father was not what you expected.

Of course, if a relationship with the LORD were really like a contractual agreement or the joining of a club, then motives would not come into the issue at all. And if the question of faith were intellectually ambiguous, then there would be no justification for believing in the first place... much less any reason to hold on to belief in the beauty of GOD later. Nevertheless, it is in fact a blessing to realize now that your motives, whatever they were in the past, were the kind that conflicted with any real relationship with Christ. If you had remained as you did, then you would certainly have heard Him say, "I never knew you." Now, you are much clearer about where you stand. That is hopeful.

Now, to consider Enow's arguments. In context, the text he cites for his proof reads as follows:

"Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately. But avoid profane chatter, because those occupied with it will stray further and further into ungodliness, and their message will spread its infection like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are in this group. They have strayed from the truth by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith. However, God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from evil.”
Now in a wealthy home there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also ones made of wood and of clay, and some are for honorable use, but others for ignoble use. So if someone cleanses himself of such behavior, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. But keep away from youthful passions, and pursue righteousness, faithfulness, love, and peace, in company with others who call on the Lord from a pure heart."

Notice the reference to "those who call on the Lord from a pure heart," which is a reference to one's motivations. The result of this "call" is a life which pursues righteousness, faithfulness, love, and peace. Those who are true Christians pursue such things, even if they do at times fail in their practice of them. They do not give up this pursuit. On the other hand, those who do not "cleanse" themselves of the behavior of people like "Hymenaeus and Philetus," who rejected the honest teachings of the LORD, will be recognized as "vessels for ignoble use." In other words, there are some who bear certain traits that make it clear they belong to a very different group. The next question is obvious. What kind of "ignoble" or "dishonorable" use does Paul have in mind? Well, consider carefully whether vessels used for ignoble purposes were the kinds of vessels that Christians, who are identified with the holy objects of the Temple, could ever be compared to. These are vessels which are not displayed, not valuable, made of cheap materials because their purpose is for filthy work. Enow seems to appreciate this and admits that such vessels "GOD will destroy," yet he doesn't seem to make the connection with the destruction of the lost. He seems to think that this destruction is comparable to the one described in I Corinthians 3, yet he misses the fact that in I Corinthians, Paul is referring to the rejection of works that are worthless, not to the destruction of people. Even a Christian's "works" can sometimes be worthless. Yet, they are not themselves altogether dishonorable vessels. Paul's reference in II Timothy parallels more closely his teaching in Romans 9, that there are some vessels destined for dishonor and some for honor. The former are destroyed, the latter redeemed.

In other words, Enow's passage offers no "proof" of his interpretation, which means that it cannot stand as "proof" of his original proposition. But what of the other verses he cited to establish his conclusion?

II Timothy 2:11-13: "If we died with him, we will also live with him. If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, since he cannot deny himself."

Taken out of its clarifying context, the latter portion of this might remain ambiguous. Does Paul mean that our unfaithfulness will have no effect upon the faithfulness of GOD, who will punish us because He cannot deny Himself? That is certainly what the parallel expressions of promise seem to suggest. We have two promises regarding faithfulness, and the reward such faithfulness receives. Then we have an unambiguous statement of apostasy, "if we deny him, he will also deny us," followed by a second line that sounds a negative note, if we follow Paul's rhetorical format (two positives, two negatives). If this is the proper interpretation, then it doesn't support Enow's original position.

Perhaps, however, I am wrong about the negative undertone of the verse. Perhaps it means instead that GOD is faithful to rescue us in the face of our unfaithfulness. Yet, even if this is the truer interpretation, it does not lend any support to Enow's thesis. At most, it merely teaches that GOD will bring to salvation those who have acted unfaithfully. Does this kind of unfaithfulness include the sort of apostasy you admitted of? Not when we consider that, "if we deny Him, He will also deny us". I think it is safe to say that you presently "deny Him."

As far as I can see, the only other proof offered by Enow is taken from John 6:39: "Now this is the will of the one who sent me – that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day."

To this, of course, every Christian must say, "Amen," and yet the question remains: are you included in the category of those whom the Father has given to His Son? That was the very question we considered at the beginning, so clearly it cannot provide an answer. It would only follow that this verse proves you remain a Christian provided we assume that it refers to you. Does it? Not according to I John, which I explored earlier.

Consider that there are multiple interpretations possible to a number of events or moments we experience. More evidence, more clarity of thought and reason is needed to come to an honest and fair conclusion. I am certain that the reasons that eventually refuted the religion you once followed were reasons you considered deeply. I do not doubt in the least that it was a complicated process, and not one that we can put aside with a few remarks here and there. But you seem to be willing to consider whether the interpretations of your past were balanced and careful. You remain admirably open-minded, so I hope you will consider what I have said, and feel welcome to converse with me if you wish.

After all, I certainly don't want to believe what is false and devote my life to error. If you take me to be a reasonable man, perhaps you can help me to see what you came to recognize in life after contemplating the serious objections that brought you to the point where you presently remain. I would welcome any help or consider any reasoning you might have to give.

[xcav8tor]

Hi Hawk3312,

I am replying here to both your OP and post #6:

I currently consider myself a former Christian. When I was 14 I prayed for salvation, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit and all that, and I was ardently religious for the next 4-5 years.

It is interesting that you described yourself as "ardently religious." It sounds like the description of a superficial, emotional "conversion" as opposed to a "new birth" experience (John 3:3-6). In His parable of the sower, Christ spoke of the seed which fell on rocky ground who, "when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB).

Did you fall into temptation near the end of this time in your life?

In the year I spent working between high school and college my faith slackened. By the time I was a sophomore in college, it was gone. I did not let it slip away, though, I turned against it. Now I consider myself an agnostic and a humanist, and maybe an existentialist (I've begun studying existentialism on my own, and so far I like it).

Did you study evolution during your time in college, and if so, did this undermine your faith in the credibility of the Bible?

You say you did not let your faith slip away, but "turned against it." Can you think of a particular event or key argument that was the turning point for you?

So, I've said all that to ask this: if the Christian God truly exists, and Christ really was resurrected and all that is true, am I still technically "saved" because of my prayer for salvation?

You raise three questions here...

1) Does the "Christian God" truly exist? Perhaps you should first settle in your mind that "a" Creator God exists. I think that is a given. Something must be eternally self-existent (from nothing, nothing comes), and it's not the universe because we know the universe had a beginning - the point when time itself began. The universe requires a sufficient cause to explain its existence.

This cause would be self-existent (the Bible tells us that God is the self-existent "I AM" - Exod. 3:14)
A cause that exists before time is by definition timeless and eternal (the Bible tells us God is "eternal" - Rom. 16:26)
Since the created universe is made of matter, it's initial cause must be immaterial (the Bible tells us God is "spirit" - John 4:24, Who calls things into being - Rom. 4:17, Heb. 11:3).
We know from Einstein's theory (e=mc2) that matter contains unfathomable power (the Bible tells us God is "Almighty" - Rev. 4:8)
The origin of immense space must be spacially unlimited (the Bible tells us God "fills the universe" - 1 Kings 8:27)
The coded design in DNA and the fine-tuning of the universe point to an intelligent designer (the Bible tells us God is "All-knowing" - Heb. 4:13, 1 John 3:19)
The decision to create requires a personal will (the Bible tells us God exercises a "personal will" - Isa. 46:9-11)

The kind of God that logic would require to explain the existence universe fits the exact description of God portrayed in the Bible (Rom. 1:19. 20).

2) Was Christ really resurrected? You know the evidence of the empty tomb: the body was gone on the third day - the Jews didn't take it (they would have produced it); the Romans didn't take it (they would have produced it); the disciples didn't take it (they couldn't move the stone without alerting the guards and they would have no motive to sacrifice their lives for what they would have KNOWN was a lie). Jesus appeared to over 500 at once who were still alive when the gospels were being written. To intelligently reject Christianity, you would first need a credible alternative to Christ's bodily resurrection, and in 2,000 years NO ONE has come up with a better explanation which can account for all the facts.

3) Am I still technically "saved"? The answer is yes ONLY IF you were GENUINELY saved in the first place. Jesus is clear on this:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life [present tense], and DOES NOT come into judgment, but HAS PASSED [past tense] out of death into life. (John 5:24 NASB)

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. MY SHEEP HEAR My voice, and I KNOW THEM, and THEY FOLLOW ME; and I give eternal life to them, and THEY WILL NEVER PERISH; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (John 10:26, 27 NASB)

But this assurance does not apply to those who are not truly converted internally (even thought they may go through the motions externally):

NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, "LORD, LORD," WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt. 7:21-23 NASB)

Even if I never "turn back," so to speak? My prayer was whole hearted and, at the time, I was very much in love with God.

As pointed out by Benjamin, the Apostle John writes:

They went out from us, but THEY WERE NOT OF US; for IF THEY HAD BEEN of us, THEY WOULD HAVE CONTINUED with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE OF THEM WERE OF US. (I John 2:19 NASB)

The scripture warns us that:

THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:9 NKJV)

In spite of your current convictions about your prior sincerity it seems you may have deceived yourself, because if you REALLY knew God and what He is REALLY like, and truly understood how much He loves you, you would not have turned your back on Him.

...For those who might be wondering why I stopped believing, it probably had something to do with a combination of anger about human suffering, and intellectual doubt...

Why be angry at God for human suffering? Your anger proves you labor under the misunderstanding that God is somehow to blame. This indicates to me that in spite of your protests to the contrary, that you never knew God or properly understood the gospel message.

This question should have been addressed BEFORE you made your profession of faith, not after. You can't understand the good news of the gospel without first understanding the bad news of how we got into this mess in the first place. All suffering and death came as a direct result of Adam's sin, and physical death was actually an act of mercy on God's part. Had Adam and Eve eaten from the tree of life they would have been separated from God by their sin for all eternity. God used death as the means of saving us, allowing Christ to die in our place so that having dealt with our sin, we could be reconciled to God and spend eternity with Him.

Have you ever asked yourself why God cursed the world after Adam sinned? Think of the alternative. If God didn't curse the world by withdrawing some of His blessings and instead allowed everything to run smoothly in our lives after the fall, how would we realize we have a spiritually fatal disease (sin) that must be "cured" before we go into a lost eternity? As C.S. Lewis said, "God WHISPERS to us in our pleasures, SPEAKS to us in our conscience, but SHOUTS in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world." If you don't realize you are ill, you are not going to seek treatment.

You also have to factor in that God did not stand off on the sidelines to watch us suffer at a distance, but in Christ, became one of us, experienced all the hardships and pain that we are subjected to, and then - OUT OF INFINITE LOVE - bore the sin of the world on our behalf. Christ's physical suffering on the Cross was nothing compared to the infinite pain God experienced in His Being as The Father had to turn His back on The Son as Christ paid for our sin. What we suffer in this world, we more than had coming, but it is nothing in comparison to the cost God paid to redeem us and provide the gift of eternal life - a price that none of us can or ever will fully appreciate.

And you are "angry at God."

I don't know what your specific "intellectual doubts" are, but don't you feel that God deserves the benefit of the doubt? We cannot be right and God wrong any more that a river can run higher than its source. The Bible tells us:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55:8, 9 NASB)

For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe... Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor. 1:19-21, 25 NASB)

A word of caution: It's a small step from being an agnostic and a humanist to becoming an atheist, and the Bible warns us about the folly of intellectual pride:

THE FOOL has said in his heart, “There is no God.” (Ps. 14:1 NASB)

Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. PROFESSING TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS. (Rom. 1:21, 22 NASB)

On Judgment Day, God is not going to be impressed or appeased by intellectual objections offered as an excuse for disbelief (and when standing before His throne of judgment I'm sure the likes of Voltaire, Darwin and Richard Dawkins will realize the futility of even attempting to defend or justify their unbelief).

My doubt is definitely of the verbal form that you mentioned. I feel like it would be foolish to get into all of them here, because they include a broad range of topics which I'm sure are better suited for discussion on different threads. I will list a few for you though:

I have trouble trusting the Bible as the authentic word of God;

Have you considered the argument of fulfilled prophecy? Only the Bible has demonstrated the ability to accurately write history in advance (for example, the sequence of world empires, describing Alexander the Great's rise to power and premature death, naming the Persian king Cyrus 150 years before his birth, the Messianic prophecies fulfilled in Christ's first coming, etc.) This is beyond the ability of merely human writers and is objective proof of the Bible being God's unique revelation to mankind.

I question God's benevolence based on the exclusiveness of Christianity in granting eternal life;

But if eternal life resides in the person of Christ, then HOW can God offer eternal life to us apart from Christ? It would be like insisting God give us water to drink as long as it's not wet. Such a demand cannot be granted.

And the testimony is this, that God has given us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life IS IN HIS SON. He who has the Son has the life; HE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE SON OF GOD DOES NOT HAVE THE LIFE. (1 John 5:11, 12 NASB)

Think of a wall with a row of power outlets, but only one is properly wired up to an electric generator. Why fault the engineer who hooked up the live socket for everyone to use because others have come along and installed faulty sockets which look viable but have no direct connection to the power source? Is it fair to question the benevolence of the engineer for telling the truth that the other sockets are "not live" and for posting a sign above His explaining it is the only working outlet? Should this "exclusive" truth be kept a secret in the name of tolerance and pluralism?

2 + 2 = 4 is "intolerant" of any suggestion that 2 + 2 = 5, or 17, or 88, but that is simply because it is the nature of truth to be intolerant of what is false. Similarly, Christianity's exclusiveness isn't based on bigotry or arrogance, but REALITY. It's not a matter of God being unreasonable, but the truth that ONLY JESUS can introduce us to The Father (John 14:6). If other religions had the truth, they would refer their followers to Jesus (but then they'd cease to exist).

Since all other religions are basically "how to save yourself" kits (based on man's efforts to EARN salvation), and Christianity stands alone as offering salvation as a FREE GIFT of God (which cannot be earned), you are basically criticizing God for offering a better way. Of course, it is required that you go to those who know about it to hear the message, so although the offer is free to all, the offer must come "exclusively" through Christ's followers.

the "typical" christian I've interacted with over the years has not reflected the fruits of the spirit, which makes me doubt the presence/existence of the Holy Spirit.

First of all, you don't know what that person is going through. As imperfect as they are, they may be much improved over the state they were in prior to becoming a Christian.

Secondly, God isn't finished with us yet. Sanctification is an ongoing process - some will be farther along than others.

Thirdly, even after accepting Christ, we still have our "old man" fighting us every step of the way. We have the choice of following our "new man" in Christ, or letting the "old man" get the better of us (Rom. 6:5-7, Col. 3:8-10, 2 Cor. 5:16-18). This battle will go on until we are resurrected and the "old man" is gone forever, but until then the Holy Spirit is within to encourage us to make the right choices.

Lastly, are you telling me you haven't seen ANY Christians who ARE filled with the Spirit, reflecting Christ's character and exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control). NONE? NOT ONE?... How about when you open your eyes?

Only one genuine example is needed. I personally know many. Perhaps your worldview has coloured your thinking so you don't notice them anymore. I assume you didn't have this problem when you started out, or you wouldn't have been attracted to Christianity in the first place.

Then there's the problem of suffering, and I would also include within that the existence of hell. To me, they both seem to contradict the whole idea of God loving us and taking a direct interest in our lives.

Have you considered what is to be done if our soul/spirit was initially created to exist forever, and knowing that the gifts of God are irrevocable? (Rom. 11:29) What is God to do with those who absolutely refuse to accept His free gift of eternal life and who are intent on living their lives without Him or even invest their lives fighting Him tooth and nail?

How would you suggest that a God Who is by nature Infinitely Good, Perfectly Just and Impeccably Holy deal with those of His creatures who abuse their gift of free will to reject Him and break His moral laws to the detriment of all whose lives they touch? He cannot turn a blind eye to their sin and defiance or He would cease to be either Good or Just. He cannot allow them to spend eternity with those who love Him, because they would make hell out of heaven. The only fair solution appears to be the one described in the Bible - granting them their wish to have Him out of their lives forever by putting them in isolation where they can do no more damage.

As C.S. Lewis observed, "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside." This is not to say that they would be allowed to leave, or that they would be content to be there, but that their consuming desire to be free from any consciousness of God's presence would be granted.

That hell is a place of torment cannot be denied, but JPH presents a good argument that hell need not necessarily be about the infliction of physical pain, but rather an intense experience of unending shame and regret (the seemingly conflicting language of flame and utter darkness perhaps indicating in symbolic terms a terrible reality).

I've been unable to overcome these intellectual obstacles on my own, and there are very few people around me to honestly discuss them with... That is why I signed up for this website.

There are many here more than willing to help you through your intellectual struggles (It would seem that there are also issues of spiritual rebellion that need to be worked out as well). Feel free to PM me if you would like.

Isn't it written somewhere that if we seek the truth, we will find it? Well... I'm seeking.

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. (Jer. 29:13 NASB)

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. (Matt. 7:7, 8 NASB)

You are seeking. That's great!

Jesus promised, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT." (John 6:37 NKJV)

Don't give up on God. He hasn't given up on you.

Regards,
xcav8tor