Muslims why are you murdering christians?????

[Onceametho]

Hello One Bad Pig.

Let's see:
Christian ideal: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."
Muslim ideal: "Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you."

Yeah, they're almost comparable.

Unfortunately, you are trying to compare "apples with oranges". If you wish to compare the doctrines of the Islam with that of the Bible, then the closest is with the Old Testament and not the New. Compare the doctrines of the New Testament with that of the Bahai and one would be closer to the mark.

Also, the fact that the Christian doctrine teaches to love and not hate does not stop Christians from killing Muslims.

Which side is obeying their scriptures?

The Christians certainly aren't are they!!!!!!

Again, this is hardly the Christian standard.

I totally agree, it certainly is not the Christian standard. And yes, I strongly believe that it is not just Religion against Religion. It goes way back and it's the radicals/extremists who keep digging it up. Not the silent minority from both sides who wish to live in peace and are tolerant of all other beliefs.

Would this be the same Malaysia that just handed over a blasphemer of Islam to Interpol so he could be returned to Saudi Arabia for execution (breaking precedent)?

Are you able to supply reference please so that I can check? As I said, I have worked in Malaysia and am currently working with many people of differing religious beliefs. Have you ventured into countries like Malaysia (and I'm not talking about being on holidays)?

And is this the silent "majority" of Egyptians who gave Muslim extremist parties 70% of the vote in recent elections? That voted Hamas into power over the Palestinians?

Your statement might hold some validity if, in those countries, COMPULSORY voting was ENFORCED. It is not.

Cheers

[One Bad Pig]

Hello One Bad Pig.



Unfortunately, you are trying to compare "apples with oranges". If you wish to compare the doctrines of the Islam with that of the Bible, then the closest is with the Old Testament and not the New. Compare the doctrines of the New Testament with that of the Bahai and one would be closer to the mark.

You're the one trying to compare apples with oranges, genius.

I totally agree, it certainly is not the Christian standard. And yes, I strongly believe that it is not just Religion against Religion. It goes way back and it's the radicals/extremists who keep digging it up. Not the silent minority from both sides who wish to live in peace and are tolerant of all other beliefs.

Didn't you just allege that the vast majority want to live in peace? Now it's the "silent minority". Either way, it's an argument from silence.

Are you able to supply reference please so that I can check? As I said, I have worked in Malaysia and am currently working with many people of differing religious beliefs. Have you ventured into countries like Malaysia (and I'm not talking about being on holidays)?

Link - apparently Interpol was not involved after all, and the decision to deport him was all on Malaysia.

Your statement might hold some validity if, in those countries, COMPULSORY voting was ENFORCED. It is not.

Cheers

The "silent majority" doesn't care enough to vote, but they care enough to complain to you?

[Onceametho]

Hi One Bad Pig,

Didn't you just allege that the vast majority want to live in peace? Now it's the "silent minority". Either way, it's an argument from silence.

Sorry, I meant "the silent majority". My fault for not proof reading too well.

You're the one trying to compare apples with oranges.

Not true. The Quran has closer links to the teachings of the Old Testament, not the New.

Thanks for the link but it shows that these decisions are made by those in power and not necessarily the views of the majority of Muslims. Also, you have not answered my question about your ventures into foreign countries. What is your experience with Muslim communities? How much interaction have you had with the general public of Muslim countries.
Hamza broke the "law of the land". He knew what he was doing. He took a gamble. Just as Jesus broke the "law of the land" and was executed for his crime. I know!!! It doesn't make it right according to our standards but they are the facts of the matter.
And with all this, it still does not stop Christians killing Muslims (and vice versa)

The "silent majority" doesn't care enough to vote, but they care enough to complain to you?

Yep! That's the apathy of the silent majority. Your statement is still invalid as there is no enforced compulsory voting in the countries you mentioned.

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

I have read with interest your posts and do feel, by the tone of your posts, that you do not abide by the above statement. Is this true? Are you really "One Bad Pig"?

Cheers

[Onceametho]

Christains are killing Muslims because the Christians are Christians and following their Scripture?

That's the problem Cow Poke! Christians don't follow their scripture. Don't get me wrong! The vast majority do. The extremists don't. That's why they have killed and do kill and I guess will continue to kill Muslims.
This thread was about Muslims murdering Christians. I simply pointed out that Christians murder Muslims, evidence of which I have provided in previous posts. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.

Examples, please.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Afric...ues-in-Nigeria

before the rise?

Christianity has not been around forever as you well know. It "rose" sometime after the execution of Jesus.
In a previous post, you said "........and we're talking "today", not centuries ago." This might imply that it was ok to kill Muslims in the past, but now, because of Christianity, it is not.
All I was asking you is, if this is the case, then it appears that the God of the past had different rules to the present God or they are not the same God! Perhaps you can clarify your statement and answer why the rules have appeared to change or the Gods have change.

Cheers

[Cybelle Hawke]

Before I will react to the posts, I would like to bring in a point of view which I received a few days ago from a former (muslim) collegue of mine on this very topic. His name is Abderrahim el Mehhdi and I have permission to remit two of his phrasings - which I had to translate in English.


1. The absolute majority in the West associates Arabs with being Muslim without making any distinguish. Yet this West forgets that also here in the Arab world, the absolute majority associates people from the West being Christian. When the US is doing something, most people in the Arab world automatically think it is Christians thinking, saying or doing so instead of merely a country.

This is one very big reason why Christians in Arab countries have been treated different then before. They have always been religiously different, but that did not lead to hate and dispise.

But now christians are politically linked to the West and they are, in the eyes of most muslims, linked to the leader of that West which they think is the USA. A leader who does not stop claiming to be a christian nation, yet who is considered by muslims to be highly corrupted, a straight liar and the very proof of how far away people can get from Allah.

Particulary this claim of being a christian nation not seldom together with a claim of being blessed by God makes the US a number one enemy for all those muslims who think that each and every non-muslim is a mere infidel and should be brought to worship the one and only God, which is Allah (praised be His Name). You will find many, many muslims who are fully and completely against terrorism and violence; yet you will find NONE who will agree that besides Allah, other gods can be worshipped.


2. The Arab Spring has indeed given space to severe increase of violence towards christians. I believe this has to do with the governments who are being fought against (Syria, Egypt but also Marroco, Algeria, and Tunesia). These governments always gave protection to the christians. Now I do not know if that protection was asked for by the West, and granted against favours or trades but I do know, that as long as there are no official new governments in countries like Egypt and Syria, that this protection does not exist and cannot be diplomatically traded for, and therefore, the christians are unprotected, or better said, on their own without highlevel protection.

And to answer your last question Cybelle, I do not know.
[whether there could be a worldwide religious call in the mosqs to wipe out christians]

We have discussed very intimately our own religious teachings. You are right: you are bound by a concept of forgiving and we abide with avenge. Yet this forgiving does not show very well in the arab world Cybelle. Too many innocent people have been killed among which children and women. You have seen how the US reacted when their innocents were murdered..... muslims feel that same rage.

[Cybelle Hawke]

Additional note: I would like to stress that when he is using the word muslim..... he is basically referring to muslims in the muslim hemisphere. It did not feel right to interfere in his phrasing, which I tried to translate as literally as possible. However, reading it back, it might give the idea that he is speaking of all muslims, while, again, he strictly talks about muslims in arab countries.

[Cow Poke]

That's the problem Cow Poke! Christians don't follow their scripture. Don't get me wrong! The vast majority do. The extremists don't. That's why they have killed and do kill and I guess will continue to kill Muslims.

EXACTLY!!!! The Christians who are killing Muslims are, for the most part, DISOBEYING our Scripture.

HOWEVER, the Muslims who are killing Christians are doing so because YOUR Scriptures (if you are, in fact, a Muslim) TELL them to.

[Cow Poke]

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Afric...ues-in-Nigeria

That link doesn't say what you think it says. It's not about Christians killing Muslims. It's about Christians and Muslims killing EACH OTHER.

YourSupposedProof

"Each side inflates the figures, and then the high numbers are used to justify revenge attacks," says Henry Mang, a researcher at Jos University's Centre for Conflict Management and Peace Studies.

© source where applicable

I bet you won't take time to read it, but http://www.persecution.org/ has a section entitled "Islamic World" which documents the Muslim attacks on Christians.

Christianity has not been around forever as you well know. It "rose" sometime after the execution of Jesus.

Why do you think we are called CHRISTIANS? It is because we follow CHRIST! There weren't a whole lot of CHRISTIANS before CHRIST!

In a previous post, you said "........and we're talking "today", not centuries ago." This might imply that it was ok to kill Muslims in the past, but now, because of Christianity, it is not.

Only to somebody who wanted to twist what I said --- Muslims like to point to the Crusades as "proof" that Christianity is violent. There was a lot going on in those days, and Christianity today is much different than that.

All I was asking you is, if this is the case, then it appears that the God of the past had different rules to the present God or they are not the same God!

Absolutely falacious logic. Christians follow Christ, as mentioned before --- many things are different between the Old and New Testaments. That's why it's called the NEW Testament.

Perhaps you can clarify your statement and answer why the rules have appeared to change or the Gods have change.

Cheers

Because you have a very shallow understanding of Christianity?

[One Bad Pig]

Not true. The Quran has closer links to the teachings of the Old Testament, not the New.

Which has what to do with how Christians are supposed to act?

Thanks for the link but it shows that these decisions are made by those in power and not necessarily the views of the majority of Muslims.

The Malaysian government is considered "moderate", yes?

Also, you have not answered my question about your ventures into foreign countries. What is your experience with Muslim communities? How much interaction have you had with the general public of Muslim countries.

I haven't had any. Most people haven't.

Hamza broke the "law of the land". He knew what he was doing. He took a gamble. Just as Jesus broke the "law of the land" and was executed for his crime. I know!!! It doesn't make it right according to our standards but they are the facts of the matter.

And you complain about me comparing apples to oranges?

And with all this, it still does not stop Christians killing Muslims (and vice versa)

Where did I say it does? Christians sometimes wrongly kill Muslims in revenge for attacks on themselves. On the other hand, Muslims frequently attack Christians because their scriptures tell them to.

Yep! That's the apathy of the silent majority. Your statement is still invalid as there is no enforced compulsory voting in the countries you mentioned.

If they're apathetic, why would they confess such feelings to an outsider?

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

I have read with interest your posts and do feel, by the tone of your posts, that you do not abide by the above statement. Is this true? Are you really "One Bad Pig"?

Cheers

I do my best to abide by the above statement. Perhaps you could explain where I appear to be falling short?

[Cybelle Hawke]

Hi Cybelle,
Thanks very much for moving this thread. I guess I made a "boo-boo".
Not at all, in fact I think that on this civics forum it may be less threatening for muslims; room for political approach instead of strictly religious. After all it is far more safe and accepted to defend political views than religious ones, particulary on a christian site



I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Very good and thanks for your clarification.
You are welcome!



Do you think that it's actually not the Christian "religion" that is objectionable to the Muslims but for what it represents, that is, the affluence/influence of the West?
No doubt in my mind that it is of influence, however, the murdering of christians has, no matter how you wish to spin it, an undeniable and highly explosive religious component that will be very difficult to wrinkle out of muslims.
On the other hand, christians are very much aloof on this topic as well. I have yet to find a christian who absolutely agrees that worshipping Allah is no problem at all. The freedom of religion is a civil right in the Western hemisphere and people of other religions are protected by law, (not by people). The tension about who is actually worshipping the real one and only God has led throughout history to terrible bloodshedding and as I see it, this tension is growing tenser these days. Yet once again, the killing of christians in the muslim hemisphere has grown way beyond incidents and has entered the territory of tendancy. What I am trying to figure out is whether we are going from tendancy towards strategy/purpose.

Of course I do not expect too much openess from muslims on what will be their future course but so far I have not seen muslim leaders calling out to stop killing christians. And what worries me as well, is that christians here in the West seem to be occupied mainly with the growing status of muslims in the West, like they are trying to take over the West (islamization), whereas actually they are - if the killing goes on on the scale it is now - whiping .christians out of the East, and no doubt you are aware, that the origin of christians IS in the East. Moreover the religion of Islam started +/- 622 after Christ.... so the christians in countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Syria for instance are not the new kids in town so to speak



But as you say, what has sparked this recent bout of violence? Several decades ago, I can remember the violence that suddenly erupted between neighbours resulting in bloodshed. One day, they were peace loving neighbours. The next, they were hacking each other up with machetes. (In Africa....Nigeria or Somalia.. not sure and should Google!)

And do not forget former Yogoslavia. Although there was a major "tribal" fight going on, it just so happens that the biggest enemies were separated by religion: muslims and christians. And indeed as you say.... friendly neighbours one day, enemies to the death the very next day



I have posted links to Websites when addressing Cow Poke and Mossrose. You may be interested. Christians are not innocent.

You say Christians are not innocent.... innocent to your standard or not, ALL must be protected against murdering! It is open season on christians in the muslim world..... so what on earth are they guilty of that justifies the violent lynching, not to mention the discrimination and threatening??

Just for your interest also "onceametho" stands for 'Once a Methodist' which I gather you may have realised. Certainly no longer.
No I had not realized that. Such a pity that you felt you had to abandon your religion. But whatever church you no longer belong to, as long as you can love thy God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbour as you love yourself.... well then the rites and ceremonies can be put aside for a while. And who knows what you will find on your quest for truth. We all seek for some measure of peace in our lives .. Life can take people off and back on course but I believe that nobody can fall deeper than in the Hands of the Creator

Cheers
Hahahaha that must be typical Australian..... I am in Brazil and we say Saude!

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[Cow Poke]

Additional note: I would like to stress that when he is using the word muslim..... he is basically referring to muslims in the muslim hemisphere. It did not feel right to interfere in his phrasing, which I tried to translate as literally as possible. However, reading it back, it might give the idea that he is speaking of all muslims, while, again, he strictly talks about muslims in arab countries.

Very interesting translation, CH.
And, yes, I agree that there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on the part of the west that Arabs are, necessarily, Muslims.
I thought it was interesting that Abderrahim seemed to make it very clear that the difference between Christians and Muslims, in his (her?) eyes, is that a tenent of our Faith is forgiveness, and a tenent of Muslim faith is (not explicitly stated, but implied) conquest.

Perhaps you could comment on your perception of the notion that "peace" is not so much the proper interpretation of "Islam" as "surrender" is? Or is that a faulty notion.

Thanks,
CP

[Onceametho]

Hi CP

That link doesn't say what you think it says. It's not about Christians killing Muslims. It's about Christians and Muslims killing EACH OTHER.

Oh, I see! So a link that shows Christians and Muslims killing each other is not a link that shows Christians are killing Muslims!!!!!

I bet you won't take time to read it, but http://www.persecution.org/ has a section entitled "Islamic World" which documents the Muslim attacks on Christians.

With many of your posts along with the "tone", you imply that I do not believe that there are more attacks on Christians than on Muslims. I have never said that. If you read my response to Cybelle, you will see that I agree with her. There have been many more attacks on Christians in recent years. All I have ever said is that Christians kill Muslims and that Christians are not totally blameless........end of story. Nobody has the right to kill anybody, no matter what.

And if you are on about a "numbers game", then in the eyes of your God, is killing 1 Muslim any worse/better than killing 2 Christians????

Why do you think we are called CHRISTIANS? It is because we follow CHRIST! There weren't a whole lot of CHRISTIANS before CHRIST!

So why are you telling me something that I already know????? Didn't my statement already tell you that I do know the derivations of the Christian Religion??? Please read more carefully.

Only to somebody who wanted to twist what I said --- Muslims like to point to the Crusades as "proof" that Christianity is violent. There was a lot going on in those days, and Christianity today is much different than that.
Absolutely falacious logic. Christians follow Christ, as mentioned before --- many things are different between the Old and New Testaments. That's why it's called the NEW Testament.

Once again, you fail to answer my questions with respect to your God of the past and your God of the present. I will ask you again. Since Christianity is so much different today than "in those days" and because the Old and New testaments are so different, is the God of the past different to the God of today and is the God of the Old Testament different to the God of the New?
And, if I wanted to twist what you said, I wouldn't have asked for clarification. Your accusations are false. If you do not want someone to misinterpret, then please write with clarification.

Because you have a very shallow understanding of Christianity

bAD LUCK. wRONG AGAIN. (Rats, forgot the Caps Lock.)

Cheers

[Onceametho]

EXACTLY!!!! The Christians who are killing Muslims are, for the most part, DISOBEYING our Scripture.

HOWEVER, the Muslims who are killing Christians are doing so because YOUR Scriptures (if you are, in fact, a Muslim) TELL them to.

Just love it when a Christian starts to yell!

Cheers

[Onceametho]

Which has what to do with how Christians are supposed to act?

Nothing. It's in response to you trying to equate the New Testament to the Quran. I was pointing out that that is like comparing apples with oranges.

The Malaysian government is considered "moderate", yes?

Yes, but my statement goes for all, not just Malaysia.

I haven't had any. Most people haven't.

Then may I suggest that you do. You may get a better perspective on life.

And you complain about me comparing apples to oranges?

I wasn't comparing apples with oranges. 2 men, 2 crimes against the State, 2 executions (1 hasn't been executed yet). Seems like comparing an apple to an apple or an orange to an orange.

Where did I say it does? Christians sometimes wrongly kill Muslims in revenge for attacks on themselves. On the other hand, Muslims frequently attack Christians because their scriptures tell them to.

I never said you did! If you think that Muslims kill Christians only because their scriptures tell them so, then this is a very naive way of thinking.

If they're apathetic, why would they confess such feelings to an outsider?

Why wouldn't they. Apathy does not mean that they do not talk. There is no law against talking to an outsider about their feelings on a range of topics. Should have heard the nice things they said about Christians.

I do my best to abide by the above statement. Perhaps you could explain where I appear to be falling short?

dON'T YOU READ YOUR OWN POSTS? (rATS! THAT caps lock AGAIN!!!)

cHEERS

[Onceametho]

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Hi Cybelle,

Thanks for your reply. You speak with great wisdom. And thanks for the "letter" from Abderrahim el Mehhdi.

I find it interesting, that at a time when several Middle East countries are striving to be more democratic, that violence against minorities is on the increase. It doesn't make sense.

We in Ausyland are having trouble with "illegal" immigrants arriving by the boat load. I know other countries are having the same trouble. Most of these immigrants are arriving from Islamic countries. The immigrants are not just Christian but Muslim as well. I'm not sure of the ratio of religions but I know a very high percentage are Muslim. Love someone, who has time, to research this. Anyone???
There are Muslim minorities in these countries. Still huge conflicts in Iraq between the differing Muslim sects (for example). I can remember many years ago, people of the Bahai faith were set upon.....many murdered. Whole families paid big money to get out of Iran, many of them ending up in Ausyland. They left everything behind. Left their money in the banks, their houses just as though no body was leaving etc. That's the only way they could escape. Many spies.

So what do you think is driving Muslims out of an Islamic country? For some reason, not only are Christians being persecuted but also those of other faiths/sects. Are the actions now any worse than say 1 000 years ago? Not that we can really obtain a comparison.
As you said, "ALL must be protected against murdering"...... absolutely. No body has the right to kill another.

Cheers and take care in Brazil.