Muslims why are you murdering christians?????

[Nathan Poe]

How did Islam lead to the Renaissance? The Crusades yes ,but I certainly I don't know about the Renaissance.

The Islamic world didn't necessarily "lead to the Renaissance," but it couldn't have happened without them.

Well, what is the Renaissance? "Rebirth." Specifically, the rebirth of Greek and Roman art, philosophy, literature, ideas, etc...

Now, The short version is that much of their art and literature was lost in Europe thanks to looters and pillagers (having your empire sacked will do that), but remember that the Greek and Roman empires both stretched into the Middle East and beyond -- and that the Arabic world was flourishing while Europe was in turmoil. It was there that much of the ancient works were preserved and translated -- They were particular fans of the philosophers, especially Aristotle, as I recall, and without them, we most likely would've lost most if not all their works.

Early Islamic illustration of Aristotle.jpg

Here's an Islamic illustration of Aristotle.

There are several sites on this topic; here's just one: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/r....htm#H011SECT2

Now, when people think of the Renaissance, they most commonly think of Italy; why? Several reasons, but partially because even though Italy was little more than a rag-tag collection of city-states, they were traders with the Middle East -- so when the traders brought back silks, spices, etc., they also brought back the Greek and Roman works that Europe was able to rediscover all over again.

So basically there you have it -- if the Islamic world hadn't been fans of the Greeks, they never would've preserved them for the Italians to bring back.

[Epoetker]

And I care for your opinion because...?

You keep responding to my posts. [/quote]

Moderated By: sparko

yes, and you keep trolling him and going off topic

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Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: sparko

You were warned Epo.

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[Nathan Poe]

Just like the Jihadists believe they're doing Allah's work.

The difference is that we ALL choose not to believe the KKK... Surely you of all people know that calling oneself a Christian doesn't make you one.

I don't believe you're being honest. Let me try it this way.

Do you honestly believe that Islamic leaders are denouncing terrorism and honor killings TO THE SAME EXTENT that Christian leaders distance themselves from KKK?

Since I don't live in an Islamic society (my Middle Eastern neighbors notwithstanding) I don't get that much info on it (FWIW, my neighbors seem as shocked and appalled by that sort of thing as I do)

But why are you backpedaling? First it was that they approve of it, now it's "they don't denounce it TO THE SAME EXTENT"

At least you're admitting that they denounce it -- that's progress.

I am aware that SOME Muslim clerics have denounced violence.

But not enough for your liking -- How many Muslim clerics have you listened to recently?

I'd lay odds that the ones who DON'T denounce may very well be in it up to their eyebrows -- much like how the Christian pastors who DON"T denounce the KKK may well have a white hood of their own in the back of their closet...

I'm ALSO aware that some of them do so for Western consumption.

That's probably true -- Neither one of us are strangers to politicians who change their tunes to suit their audience.

Now, you'll argue that this is religion, not politics, and I'll answer: Is there a difference here? Why would those clerics care about "Western consumption" if not for political reasons?

[Nathan Poe]

You keep responding to my posts.

Continue to amuse me, and I'll continue to respond

Because the truth as he and anyone with a brain (who are assiduously kept off juries in Britain) could see it carried an unacceptably high risk of getting sent to prison for life. Not all threats of force are backed up with force, and not all risks are created equal, but unless you've been in a similar situation and lost, you have absolutely no right to claim that confessing to a crime you didn't commit to avoid dying for a crime you also didn't commit is anything other than coercion-of law, prejudice, or procedure.

He had the opportunity to present his side of the story -- instead, he chose to plead guilty. No jury ever heard a word about self-defense, so how can you honestly say he was sent to prison for it?

Wow. I can say without exaggeration that you are a wicked, lazy, insensitive son of hell.

Oh, don't sugar-coat it, honey -- tell me what you really think...

So lawyers are the high priests of your religion now, and expertise in the law the determinant of all ends?

No, but they are the people you should trust in a court of law -- we are still talking about law, not religion, aren't we?

Or are you getting confused? Sundowning, are we?

They who at best manage the failures and corruptions of society are now the prime protectors of its people?

A necessary evil when you're arrested -- although, granted, they are often closer to "evil" than "necessary."

Unlike you, I actually READ law school discussion boards(try autoadmit if you have a strong stomach), and anyone who believes that they operate under anything but simple profit motive is fooling themselves.

So how does a lawyer profit by avoiding a trial? Criminal lawyers get paid by the hour, do they not?

I'd ask you to stop shooting your own argument in the foot -- but you're continuing to amuse me. Do go on...

Why you sanctimonious, servile hypocrite! A man, having no previous criminal record, protects himself and his friends from a crazed lunatic, one of them a pregnant woman, and you see fit to casually slander them like this!

Actually I was referring to you, not him.

If there isn't a single respectable man left in your country to throw you from the tower like the devil-worshiper you are, then may you and all who think like you die in the next riot!

Would you mind breathing slowly and counting to 20 before you give yourself an aneurysm? I'd hate for the fun to stop prematurely.

(CP, do you need any further evidence that Nathan Poe is completely morally corrupt, or should I encourage him some more?)

You think I need your encouragement? I'm sure CP finds you almost as amusing as I do -- who wouldn't?

(See, Cow Poke? Now you know I'm not playing a game with you -- if I was, it would look more like this )

[Cow Poke]

The difference is that we ALL choose not to believe the KKK... Surely you of all people know that calling oneself a Christian doesn't make you one.

So, why did you smugly present them as your poster boy example of "the equivalent Christain group" when I asked? Were you being facetious? Did you change your mind? Did you realize that was a pretty bad example?

Since I don't live in an Islamic society (my Middle Eastern neighbors notwithstanding) I don't get that much info on it (FWIW, my neighbors seem as shocked and appalled by that sort of thing as I do)

Maybe they've been westernized!

But why are you backpedaling? First it was that they approve of it, now it's "they don't denounce it TO THE SAME EXTENT"

NOW you're being disingenuous, Nathan... you have actually QUOTED my "condone/allow/encourage/approve/whatever" phrases. And the fact that I allow your argument means I'm BACKPEDALING? Come on, Nathan, if I disagree with you, I'm not reasonable, and if I try to be conciliatory, I'm BACKPEDALING?

Are you interested in honest dialogue, Nathan, or are you just wanting to play games and twist words?

At least you're admitting that they denounce it -- that's progress.

Again -- games... I'm not disputing that SOME Muslim clerics are denouncing terrorism.

The whole time we're having this dialogue, I'm continuing to research this. OF ALL PLACES, I'm looking at some interesting information from Barbara Boxer's office where she awarded CAIR for some "good stuff", then had to take the award back because she found out some of the very stuff I've been talking about.

Would you agree that Barbara Boxer is not exactly "FOX NEWS" material?

But not enough for your liking -- How many Muslim clerics have you listened to recently?

QUITE A FEW!!!! Like I said, I'm researching this while we're in this discussion, and I'm listening to some who have made clear denunciations -- SOME of those are documented to have ties to Hezbollah or Muslim Brotherhood, but I'm still researching.

I'd lay odds that the ones who DON'T denounce may very well be in it up to their eyebrows -- much like how the Christian pastors who DON"T denounce the KKK may well have a white hood of their own in the back of their closet...

And that's a possibility!

That's probably true -- Neither one of us are strangers to politicians who change their tunes to suit their audience.

Agreed, but there's a little bit of difference between politicians "packaging things" to get re-elected, and Muslim Clerics who are denouncing terrorism here, but collecting money in their mosques to send back home to SUPPORT terrorism. And before you try to make that "CP said ALL Muslim..... "... let's try not to be disingenuous, OK?

Now, you'll argue that this is religion, not politics, and I'll answer: Is there a difference here? Why would those clerics care about "Western consumption if not for political reasons?

What I "knew", but forgot, but am learning again --- I'm watching a lot of video by western Muslim clerics, and some muslims who have converted to Christianity... what I'm learning is -- and I welcome your input on this -- is that they don't SEE it as religion vs. politics --- Islam is an ideology that encompasses every aspect of their lives.

[Cerebrum123]

Islam is more than just religion for the Muslims. It's politics,religion ,LAW etc. It has ALL aspects of life tied in just as CP said above in his post. Now not ALL Muslims are like this (I personally know one he's my neurologist ,and have several friends online who are Muslims) ,but Islam isn't just "religion" to them. I think you should go learn a little more about Islam ,before you go equating it to Christianity. My suggested place to look for information would be www.answering-islam.org ,but sine they are a Christian run website you may not trust them as a valid source. If you don't want to go there try www.islam-watch.org www.jihadwatch.org ,or maybe even just this place will do www.searchtruth.com. That last one is just a simple site that translates the Quran and Hadith. It's very hard to read that stuff (confusing mostly) ,reads like some kind of Shakespeare stuff ,only to about the 20th power.

[Nathan Poe]

So, why did you smugly present them as your poster boy example of "the equivalent Christain group" when I asked? Were you being facetious? Did you change your mind? Did you realize that was a pretty bad example?

Actually, I was drawing a parallel -- My position is that Al-Qaeda represents Islam almost as much as the KKK represents Christianity.

Maybe they've been westernized!

Nevertheless, they're still Muslim, so my point still stands -- Islam is not responsible for the cauldron of violent death that is the Middle East these days. There's nothing inherently evil about it, else it couldn't be "westernized."

NOW you're being disingenuous, Nathan... you have actually QUOTED my "condone/allow/encourage/approve/whatever" phrases. And the fact that I allow your argument means I'm BACKPEDALING? Come on, Nathan, if I disagree with you, I'm not reasonable, and if I try to be conciliatory, I'm BACKPEDALING?

Fair enough. So you are agreeing with me, then? The majority of Muslim clerics do indeed denounce the violence?

Are you interested in honest dialogue, Nathan, or are you just wanting to play games and twist words?

Quite interested -- just checking to see if you are, too.

Again -- games... I'm not disputing that SOME Muslim clerics are denouncing terrorism.

And I'd change that "some" to "most." Of course, it's the ones who don't who make the news.

But it would be very foolish and disingenuous on anyone's part to accept the MSM's spin on it -- bomber-praising kooks get coverage; voices of reason do not.

(that's true of just about any religion/political situation, I would think)

The whole time we're having this dialogue, I'm continuing to research this. OF ALL PLACES, I'm looking at some interesting information from Barbara Boxer's office where she awarded CAIR for some "good stuff", then had to take the award back because she found out some of the very stuff I've been talking about.

Would you agree that Barbara Boxer is not exactly "FOX NEWS" material?

Yes, but without specifics, I'm not going to give your anecdotes or hers much weight.

QUITE A FEW!!!! Like I said, I'm researching this while we're in this discussion, and I'm listening to some who have made clear denunciations -- SOME of those are documented to have ties to Hezbollah or Muslim Brotherhood, but I'm still researching.

I wouldn't expect anyone on their payrolls (so to speak) to be an accurate or unbiased representative of the religion in general. Similarly, I wouldn't give much weight to a Christian Pastor who spend his weekends wearing a certain style of white hood...

And that's a possibility!

Right -- since we know that terrorist organizations (can we agree that the KKK counts as domestic terrorists?) wrap themselves up in religious rhetoric, we can expect a few of their members to have (bogus or authentic) religious cred. What better way to blur the line between their politics and their religious facade?

In the case of a KKK pastor, for example, we have a question of the chicken or the egg -- did the Klan get to them young, and then they entered the seminary, or were they already men of the cloth who, because of their own political or social leanings, fell in with a bad crowd? Surely we can't deny that even holy men can be corrupted.

Either way, it's bad news. Now, the difference between Christianity and Islam here is one of scale -- The KKK's corruption of Christianity is on the wane as they are -- they're not quite the force they were in the past (or perhaps they're as strong as ever, and have simply gone underground -- we must always be vigilant), whereas the situation in the Middle East has created a breeding ground for groups such as Al-Qaeda to get their fingers into a lot of different pies.

Agreed, but there's a little bit of difference between politicians "packaging things" to get re-elected, and Muslim Clerics who are denouncing terrorism here, but collecting money in their mosques to send back home to SUPPORT terrorism. And before you try to make that "CP said ALL Muslim..... "... let's try not to be disingenuous, OK?

Wouldn't think of it -- the issue, as we said, is one of scale. My position is, and shall remain, that Islam is not inherently evil, but certainly has, to an extent, been hijacked and corrupted by terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda who, like the KKK, need religious overtones to add the illusion of righteousness and nobility to their political goals. Sound familiar?

Like a patient with gangrene, the goal is to cut away the infection without killing the patient -- the trick is figuring out exactly where the infection ends.



What I "knew", but forgot, but am learning again --- I'm watching a lot of video by western Muslim clerics, and some muslims who have converted to Christianity... what I'm learning is -- and I welcome your input on this -- is that they don't SEE it as religion vs. politics --- Islam is an ideology that encompasses every aspect of their lives.[/QUOTE]

[Nathan Poe]

Islam is more than just religion for the Muslims. It's politics,religion ,LAW etc. It has ALL aspects of life tied in just as CP said above in his post.

Isn't Christianity the same way? It's not just something you do on Sundays...

Now not ALL Muslims are like this (I personally know one he's my neurologist ,and have several friends online who are Muslims) ,but Islam isn't just "religion" to them. I think you should go learn a little more about Islam ,before you go equating it to Christianity.

Surely you're not saying that Christianity is "just" a religion? I think there's more in common here than you think...

My suggested place to look for information would be www.answering-islam.org ,but sine they are a Christian run website you may not trust them as a valid source. If you don't want to go there try www.islam-watch.org www.jihadwatch.org ,or maybe even just this place will do www.searchtruth.com. That last one is just a simple site that translates the Quran and Hadith. It's very hard to read that stuff (confusing mostly) ,reads like some kind of Shakespeare stuff ,only to about the 20th power.

I don't have a problem with Shakespeare stuff -- whereas you might have a problem with this man: http://ffrf.org/about/getting-acquainted/dan-barker/

I'm sure the sites have a lot of interesting material, and I'll peruse them when I get the chance, but perhaps a religion's "apostates" shouldn't be the only source of information about a given religion?

[Cow Poke]

Actually, I was drawing a parallel -- My position is that Al-Qaeda represents Islam almost as much as the KKK represents Christianity.

Come on, Nathan.. . we were not just talking about Al-Qqeda -- we were talking about violence and honor killings and other things.

Nevertheless, they're still Muslim, so my point still stands -- Islam is not responsible for the cauldron of violent death that is the Middle East these days. There's nothing inherently evil about it, else it couldn't be "westernized."

That reasoning doesn't stand, Nathan. Do you know for sure that they're fulfilling all the rules and edicts of Islam? And isn't this like the anecdotal stuff that you said you wouldn't believe?

Fair enough. So you are agreeing with me, then? The majority of Muslim clerics do indeed denounce the violence?

Absolutely not. MAYBE the majority of WESTERN Muslim clerics.. but neither of us has the numbers. Do you? Do you have any idea what percent of Muslim Clerics the Western Clerics represent? I'm thinking it has to be pretty small.

Quite interested -- just checking to see if you are, too.

I'm here to learn. I push, and if I am proven wrong, I can back down. Who was the philosopher who said, "how can I know what I think until I hear myself say it?"

And I'd change that "some" to "most." Of course, it's the ones who don't who make the news.

If we're talking about Muslim Clerics in the US, I might agree, but, again, I suspect they're a tiny percentage of Muslim Clerics in the world.

But it would be very foolish and disingenuous on anyone's part to accept the MSM's spin on it -- bomber-praising kooks get coverage; voices of reason do not.

And, using that reasoning, there must be PRECIOUS LITTLE Christian violence that can be compared to Muslim violence, or it would be all over the news. They EVEN tried to portray Tim McVay as a Christian terrorist, but he was even anti-Christian at times in his life.

(that's true of just about any religion/political situation, I would think)

Well, think about it from a news coverage standpoint with all the politically correct crap -- news reporters have to be REALLY careful how they portray any African-American coverage, for fear of offending blacks.... I think the same is true that there's this fear of offending Muslims in the US --- and LORD HAVE MERCY if you should even draw a CARTOON that Muslims don't like.

We DO have a large Muslim populatin in NW Houston, and I do have associations with some of them. I am not anti-Muslim, and, as I stated, my brother-in-law was a Muslim.

Yes, but without specifics, I'm not going to give your anecdotes or hers much weight.

But I'm supposed to place weight on your neighbors because they're KINDA Muslim? Besides, I didn't ask you to place any weight on it --- I haven't even finished my research yet, and wasn't PRESENTING anecdotes -- just letting you know I'm honestly researching both sides.

SPEAKING of both sides, there appeared to be a real furor within the FBI, because SOME top officials were attending some of these meetings, while OTHER FBI biggies were furious because they felt the presense of top FBI officials gave a sense of "coverage" to the meetings. For all I know, it was "intelligence gathering".

I wouldn't expect anyone on their payrolls (so to speak) to be an accurate or unbiased representative of the religion in general. Similarly, I wouldn't give much weight to a Christian Pastor who spend his weekends wearing a certain style of white hood...

I'm not sure if there's something there I'm supposed to disagree with.

Right -- since we know that terrorist organizations (can we agree that the KKK counts as domestic terrorists?) wrap themselves up in religious rhetoric, we can expect a few of their members to have (bogus or authentic) religious cred. What better way to blur the line between their politics and their religious facade?

Hmmmm... i think you're equivocating againt... yes, KKK was DEFINITELY into domestic terrorism, and they weren't just making "political statements". But I think you're failing to understand that Islam is all-encompassing -- it IS religion and politics and government and culture and everything else. It's an ideology.

In the case of a KKK pastor, for example, we have a question of the chicken or the egg -- did the Klan get to them young, and then they entered the seminary, or were they already men of the cloth who, because of their own political or social leanings, fell in with a bad crowd? Surely we can't deny that even holy men can be corrupted.

Quite honestly, I think that was just pure racism.

Either way, it's bad news. Now, the difference between Christianity and Islam here is one of scale -- The KKK's corruption of Christianity is on the wane as they are -- they're not quite the force they were in the past (or perhaps they're as strong as ever, and have simply gone underground -- we must always be vigilant), whereas the situation in the Middle East has created a breeding ground for groups such as Al-Qaeda to get their fingers into a lot of different pies.

This is where I think you're not getting it at all ---- we weren't talking about Al-Qaeda until just recently --- I have been talking about the violence, honor killings, sawing heads off ---- that wasn't an invention of Al-Qaeda. And the difference between Christianity and Islam is MORE than just one of scale. Islam is an all-encompassing ideology. And, yes, I saw your comments to Cerebrum123, and YES, Christianity is supposed to be more than "Sunday only", but I don't know if you're going to find any Christians today that want to set up caliphates or caliphes.

I'm honestly thinking you don't know as much about Islam as you think you do. I'm SURE you don't know as much about Christianity as you think you do.

Wouldn't think of it -- the issue, as we said, is one of scale.

No --- that's what YOU said. I disagree.

My position is, and shall remain,

WHO's not willing to learn?????

that Islam is not inherently evil, but certainly has, to an extent, been hijacked and corrupted by terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda who, like the KKK, need religious overtones to add the illusion of righteousness and nobility to their political goals. Sound familiar?

No --- I'm not going to let you keep dragging this to Al-Qaeda, which until RECENTLY in this thread, was not even a topic of discussion. And try as you may to tie KKK to Christianity, you ALSO said the whole world knows they're NOT.

Like a patient with gangrene, the goal is to cut away the infection without killing the patient -- the trick is figuring out exactly where the infection ends.

Well, it's best (and I'm not a (medical) doctor, nor do I play one on TV - but I DO watch House a lot) to properly identify the affliction before beginning the treatment. And, yeah, you're kinda saying that, but I think you need to be in the right operating room, first.

[Cow Poke]

Just hold on.... Obama is reasoning with them --- soon, all will be well.

Reasoning with whom? The people in the slums? The people the French and British governments abandoned? You think Obama is going to correct their neglect? Wishful thinking, my friend...

I just wanted to make it REALLY CLEAR that my comment about "hold on... Obama is reasoning with them"... was intended to be facetious and sarcastic. I really didn't think it needed sarcasm tags, since I've been accused of getting all my news from FOX NEWS. HOWEVER....

For the record --- I believe that the longer Obama stays in office and follows up his apology tour and "reaching out" to the Islamic world and disastrous handling of the Iran situation ... the more problems we're going to have. If you look up "narcissism" in the dictionary, you'll find a picture of Obama.

<Sarcasm>

BESIDES, he wasn't even BORN IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!!

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

(I'm baking cookies as we speak so I can entertain the Secret Service when they visit me )

[Nathan Poe]

Come on, Nathan.. . we were not just talking about Al-Qqeda -- we were talking about violence and honor killings and other things.

Well, violence you'll find just about anywhere -- and 5,000 honor killings a year is deplorable, but given a population of over a billion, I'd say we're talking about a small percentage.

Alas, the media does love its sensationalism, doesn't it?

That reasoning doesn't stand, Nathan. Do you know for sure that they're fulfilling all the rules and edicts of Islam?

Do I have any reason to believe that they're not? I've yet to meet a Christian who meets all the rules and edicts of their religion, so I'm willing to accept a little liberalism, as it were -- aren't you?

And isn't this like the anecdotal stuff that you said you wouldn't believe?

Very much so -- good catch. Anyway, I don't think they'd care much one way or the other at the implication that they're not being Muslim enough for you -- they're Muslim enough for themselves; they seem happy enough.

Absolutely not. MAYBE the majority of WESTERN Muslim clerics.. but neither of us has the numbers. Do you? Do you have any idea what percent of Muslim Clerics the Western Clerics represent? I'm thinking it has to be pretty small.

No, and neither do you. So where are you pulling your MAYBEs out of? More anecdotes?

I'm here to learn. I push, and if I am proven wrong, I can back down. Who was the philosopher who said, "how can I know what I think until I hear myself say it?"

Dunno -- but I've had my share of disingenuous debate partners; apologies for insinuating that you were one.

If we're talking about Muslim Clerics in the US, I might agree, but, again, I suspect they're a tiny percentage of Muslim Clerics in the world.

Without the numbers, all we have are suspicions.

If ever there was a reason that politics and religion shouldn't mix, I think we've found one.

And, using that reasoning, there must be PRECIOUS LITTLE Christian violence that can be compared to Muslim violence, or it would be all over the news. They EVEN tried to portray Tim McVay as a Christian terrorist, but he was even anti-Christian at times in his life.

So was Saul of Tarsus -- look what he became in the end. (And no, I'm not comparing Paul to McVeigh, just pointing out that even Christians can be "anti-Christian at times in [their lives]")

Well, think about it from a news coverage standpoint with all the politically correct crap -- news reporters have to be REALLY careful how they portray any African-American coverage, for fear of offending blacks.... I think the same is true that there's this fear of offending Muslims in the US --- and LORD HAVE MERCY if you should even draw a CARTOON that Muslims don't like.

There is the PC nonsense to worry about -- but without sensationalism, Journalism is dead. Besides, we're in a perpetual "War on Terror," and every war needs an enemy -- Despite even Bush's post 9/11 comments that terrorism, not Islam, was the enemy, there's always going to be a scapegoat.

Within reason, of course -- you're right about the cartoons, but let's face it, people take their religions seriously. I've got a few choice thoughts about Jesus which, said in certain crowds, would probably land me in an emergency room. I'm sure you know the type.

Is it the same thing? of course it's not as serious, but then again, our society hasn't been racked by war, colonization, and foreign occupation. You've seen how certain communities get all up in arms when a mosque gets built in their town? Imagine a few Saudi army bases going up instead!

(Some people might argue that it's the same thing -- they have no idea...)

We DO have a large Muslim populatin in NW Houston, and I do have associations with some of them. I am not anti-Muslim, and, as I stated, my brother-in-law was a Muslim.

I believe it -- and do you think they're any LESS Muslim because they're not a bunch of honor-killing, bomb-throwing, head-chopping kooks? I don't.

But I'm supposed to place weight on your neighbors because they're KINDA Muslim? Besides, I didn't ask you to place any weight on it --- I haven't even finished my research yet, and wasn't PRESENTING anecdotes -- just letting you know I'm honestly researching both sides.

Glad to hear it -- as am I.

Which is why I hope we both agree that blaming Islam alone for the violent culture and history of the Middle East simply won't do.

SPEAKING of both sides, there appeared to be a real furor within the FBI, because SOME top officials were attending some of these meetings, while OTHER FBI biggies were furious because they felt the presense of top FBI officials gave a sense of "coverage" to the meetings. For all I know, it was "intelligence gathering".

Spies gonna spy -- it's what they do.

I'm not sure if there's something there I'm supposed to disagree with.

I hope there's not -- surely we can agree once in a while?

Hmmmm... i think you're equivocating againt... yes, KKK was DEFINITELY into domestic terrorism, and they weren't just making "political statements".

Terrorism is always a political statement -- Remember, not every "statement" is made in words -- actions speak louder, and all that.

But I think you're failing to understand that Islam is all-encompassing -- it IS religion and politics and government and culture and everything else. It's an ideology.

And Christianity isn't? And Judaism isn't? A religion isn't what a person does once a week at the church or temple, it's who they are.

America has a system of rules in place to attempt to keep religious ideology on a personal level, and out of public/government affairs -- the "wall of separation," right or wrong, exists.

Now, there are certain elements in this country (I'm thinking the more dominionist Christian ideologies) who would love to have that wall torn down. The problem is, they don't realize that wall protects them as much as it protects heathens like me from them. Any cracks or loopholes in that wall can be exploited by anyone.

But I digress.

Quite honestly, I think that was just pure racism.

How so? No priest, pastor, minister, etc., is above temptation or corruption, is he?

A white pastor can be seduced by the KKK, or a black minister can fall for Black-Pantherish rhetoric, and before you know it, they're either preaching it openly from the pulpit, or in more subtle ways. Race has nothing to do with it; I was just continuing with the KKK example.

Such thinking is a perversion of the religious message, but that doesn't mean people (even educated ones) won't fall for it.

This is where I think you're not getting it at all ---- we weren't talking about Al-Qaeda until just recently --- I have been talking about the violence, honor killings, sawing heads off ---- that wasn't an invention of Al-Qaeda. And the difference between Christianity and Islam is MORE than just one of scale.

And as long as we're talking about scale, remember how many of the billion Muslims in the world AREN'T lopping off heads or killing their daughters.

I would give a ballpark guess that the number of Christian families who freak out (even to point of violence) at the "coming out" of a family member is a lot more than 5,000/year (the estimated number of honor killings worldwide, and remember that they're not all Muslims) -- but no matter the number, it would be disingenuous of me or anyone else to equate gay bashing with Christianity, would it not?

And before you say it, you know perfectly well that trying to slap some sense into your gay son before disowning him and tossing him out of the house is NOT something that gets UNANIMOUSLY denounced by Christians -- not by a long shot, and you know it.

Islam is an all-encompassing ideology. And, yes, I saw your comments to Cerebrum123, and YES, Christianity is supposed to be more than "Sunday only", but I don't know if you're going to find any Christians today that want to set up caliphates or caliphes.

Not in name, (except for the dominionists) but in fact, more than you know -- but as I said, we have a wall of separation which would make it impossible.

Even with that wall in place, look at the likes of some of the GOPs social conservatives -- have you heard Santorum lately? He's mild, because neither the Constitution nor the moderates would stand for anything more. The rhetoric is heavily diluted, but it's there.

Now imagine someone like that, only off their leash.

I'm honestly thinking you don't know as much about Islam as you think you do. I'm SURE you don't know as much about Christianity as you think you do.

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

Personally, I think you've missed my point -- OF COURSE the KKK is a gross distortion of Christianity -- no sane person (who's not already a klansman) would think otherwise. My point is that in the same way, groups such as Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are gross distortions of Islam -- the difference is, there are plenty of sane people who DO think otherwise.

Does their belief make them right?

No --- that's what YOU said. I disagree.

Fair enough.

WHO's not willing to learn?????

Fair enough -- I should have specified that I'm sticking to my position because I haven't heard anything to make me change my mind yet. Apologies for being too curt.

No --- I'm not going to let you keep dragging this to Al-Qaeda, which until RECENTLY in this thread, was not even a topic of discussion. And try as you may to tie KKK to Christianity, you ALSO said the whole world knows they're NOT.

And the "whole world" DOESN'T know that Al-Qaeda isn't Islam -- but if I'm right, and they're not, then it doesn't matter what the world "knows" or "doesn't know." Truth is truth, regardless of who (if anyone) believes it.

My point is that you're taking the worst behavior that happens in the Muslim world and blowing it out of proportion to make it look like just another day in Islam -- it's disingenuous, and I know that you know better. As long as you want to talk about the worst behaviors, I'll continue to talk about the worst offenders.

Well, it's best (and I'm not a (medical) doctor, nor do I play one on TV - but I DO watch House a lot) to properly identify the affliction before beginning the treatment. And, yeah, you're kinda saying that, but I think you need to be in the right operating room, first.

Then we have to know the difference between the infection and the healthy tissue -- the problem is, as long as people think Islam itself is the infection (and, no offense, plenty of Christians are of that mind even without the terrorism; gotta convert 'em all! ) not enough people are going to bother trying.

[Cow Poke]

Just some quick thoughts....

Since you want to bring Al-Qaeda into the discussion, would you also bring all the other Islamic terrorist organizations into the discussion? Have you ever researched to see how many there are?

I believe we have agreed that the WHOLE WORLD realizes that KKK is not representative of Christianity, so I'm not going to respond to that straw man anymore, except, perhaps, to remind you I'm not discussing it. BESIDES the KKK, what Christian terrorist groups are there today? (Please note that Northern Ireland has been pretty peaceful of late)

I'm not sure that you responded to the notion that over 93% (97% in some studies, Hindu rounding out the 100) of honor killings were perpetrated by Muslims -- and that's only from figures where Muslims were not able to block the survey. It seems to be, with precious few exceptions, an Islamic practice.

Just a note that, in places like Sudan, Christians and Muslims are killing each other in an ongoing war, but I wouldn't see that so much as terrorism, by definition, as I would "war".

Just out of curiosity, what is your beef with Christianity? I mean, you're free not to believe, of course, and you're certainly free to disagree with its practices and teachings, but why such effort to equate it to Islam? Are you denying that Islam is an all-encompassing ideology?

Oh... one last thing.. you seem to challenge my reasoning that there are much fewer Muslim Clerics in the West than there are are in traditional Muslim lands.... are you just being difficult? Would you REALLY believe they are as numerous here as they are in the East?

ETA: Here's a link showing the numbers of Muslims per country --- wouldn't you agree that there would be at least some kind of relationship between the number of Clerics per Muslim?

[Nathan Poe]

Just some quick thoughts....

Since you want to bring Al-Qaeda into the discussion, would you also bring all the other Islamic terrorist organizations into the discussion? Have you ever researched to see how many there are?

Why not bring ALL terrorist organizations into the discussion? You'll find them, I would think, in all sorts of politically unstable areas.

I believe we have agreed that the WHOLE WORLD realizes that KKK is not representative of Christianity, so I'm not going to respond to that straw man anymore, except, perhaps, to remind you I'm not discussing it. BESIDES the KKK, what Christian terrorist groups are there today? (Please note that Northern Ireland has been pretty peaceful of late)

key words -- "of late."

And if the WHOLE WORLD recognized that Al-Qaeda was not representative of Islam in general, would you finally agree that they are not? Or would a simple majority of the world suffice? How about two thirds?

Just so we're clear, how much of the world are you ready to disagree with?

I'm not sure that you responded to the notion that over 93% (97% in some studies, Hindu rounding out the 100) of honor killings were perpetrated by Muslims -- and that's only from figures where Muslims were not able to block the survey. It seems to be, with precious few exceptions, an Islamic practice.

And that's only from figures where non-Muslims were not able to block it, either.

And I'm not denying that it occurs almost (key word -- "almost") exclusively in Islamic areas of the world -- that doesn't mean it's commanded by Islam itself. Religion is only one factor in what makes up a culture, and since the religion itself does not support the practice, it must be coming from elsewhere in the culture.

Just a note that, in places like Sudan, Christians and Muslims are killing each other in an ongoing war, but I wouldn't see that so much as terrorism, by definition, as I would "war".

And I would agree -- war is hell, after all.

Just out of curiosity, what is your beef with Christianity? I mean, you're free not to believe, of course, and you're certainly free to disagree with its practices and teachings, but why such effort to equate it to Islam?

Why do you think I have a beef with Christianity because I'm equating it with Islam? On paper, you guys are two sides of the same coin -- hardly my fault if you don't want to recognize that.

Of course, the key words there are "on paper," but that's been part and parcel to my entire point, hasn't it?

I offered you a thought experiment -- tell me what you think the worst-case scenario is, if all the hype is true, and you'll find the answer. Sure, I could tell you myself, but I think you'd understand it more if I showed you my answer in your own words.

No, I won't twist them -- if you do this little exercise for me honestly, I won't have to.

Are you denying that Islam is an all-encompassing ideology?

Of course it is -- as much as Christianity is.. or at the very least, as much as Christianity should be.

Oh... one last thing.. you seem to challenge my reasoning that there are much fewer Muslim Clerics in the West than there are are in traditional Muslim lands.... are you just being difficult? Would you REALLY believe they are as numerous here as they are in the East?

I said no such thing.

[Cow Poke]

I said no such thing.

Good, cause it would be really wacky.

[Onceametho]

So, you want a predictable God who does things the way YOU think they should be done.

Bad luck. You've lost all credibility re your infamous list. Whatever you say is not worth a grain of salt.

Cheers