Muslims why are you murdering christians?????

[Cybelle Hawke]

I've been in the middle east for over 6 years now and I'm pretty sure that it's almost impossible to seperate the culture from the religion. In other words, it's both.

Well, the culture is something they all have in common and see as both their roots and inheritance that connects and links them together as a people; the religion is what is separating them and keeping them apart. From what I see is that for the culture they want their children to inherit, there is but room for islam

[Cybelle Hawke]

1. The British and highly controversial Sharia-expert Shaykh Haitham al-Haddad will participate and lecture on the Islam-congres in Amsterdam on April 8 next.

He will address separately thee topics:
the dialogue between muslims and non-muslims;
different colours in fundamentalism and extremism;
the danger of islamphobia for society


The Dutch parliament, who on the request of the Jewish Dutch organization CIDI (translated Center of Information and Documentation Israel)on an earlier occasion had decided to deny the Sharia-promotor to enter into Dutch territory, now stated that it wants the Islam congress to be held in openess and that controversial speakers should have the right to be debated and challenged in that same openess and that particulary non-muslims should have the opportunity to get to know the ideas, opinions and views of influential and expert Muslim leaders.

Haddad however is everything but crystal & clear. In an earlier discussion with a muslim Dutch parliament member, he phrased his views about women and non muslims for instance in typical arab/muslim language which made it difficult for a non-muslim to grasp what it was about, other than 'the beliefs of that religion which should be respected'

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© ANP. Haitham al-Haddad (right) in discussion with Dutch parliament member Tofik Dibi.

[Cybelle Hawke]

On the other hand, French president Sarkozy has announced that radical muslim preachers will be denied access to France on the coming Islam conference in Paris (April 6-9)

The recent events in Toulouse may have contributed to Sarkozy´s statement but the French president particulary named Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawi to not be welcome on French soil. The 86 year old Egyptian religious leader (who also is president of the international union of muslim scholars) lives in Qatar and weekly hosts on al-Jazeera. He rages against the infidel West and openly approves suicidal missions in Israel. Millions of muslims weekly assist his sessions.

The muslim conference is organized by the Union of Islamic Organizations in France (UOIF) which is known to have close ties with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.




Attachment 75057
Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi

[Nathan Poe]

I've been in the middle east for over 6 years now and I'm pretty sure that it's almost impossible to seperate the culture from the religion. In other words, it's both.

And yet outside the Middle East...

[nickcopernicus]

And yet outside the Middle East...

...... Yes? Could you be more specific? It's pretty much the same thing in Africa. I think earlier on in this thread someone brought up Sudan. Al Shebab, the African sect of AQ doesn't seem to be any different.

I think that in general, Muslims living in the developed countries behave differently. It's hard to generalize them outside of the middle east.

Cheers,

Nick

[Nathan Poe]

...... Yes? Could you be more specific? It's pretty much the same thing in Africa. I think earlier on in this thread someone brought up Sudan. Al Shebab, the African sect of AQ doesn't seem to be any different.

I think that in general, Muslims living in the developed countries behave differently. It's hard to generalize them outside of the middle east.

Cheers,

Nick

So the short version is that it's the country, not the religion -- people living in politically and economically deprived hellholes tend to act less than civilized -- who knew?

[Cerebrum123]

Actually it's NOT just a geographical thing or an economic thing. There are things that are going on that are inherently tied to Islamic theology. Just recently here in the USA a man beat up someone for wearing a "zombie Mohammed" costume. The man who was beat up was scolded by a judge in Pennsylvania ,and the Muslim who beat him up got off scott free. The judge was Muslim ,and said that Muslims have the right (and if you go by Islamic laws like Sharia) to beat up someone who defames Mohammed. Also there are things like the law in Islam that says an apostate must be put to death. In countries like Sweden a large percentage (don't have the stats on hand) of rapes are performed by Muslims ,even though they are a minority in the country. Also things like "honor killings" are performed in the extreme majority by Muslims when compared to any other group that does this. These things are happening all over the world ,and the common denominator is Islam.

[seanD]

Unfortunately, these are the regimes that the west prefers and caters to. For example, the Libyan government was secular and socialist. The jihadist didn't want that type of government, so, with the help of the west, the jihadist toppled his regime, cleansed the country of black Africans who supported him and now the government is Islamic, in total disarray, and even more unpredictable. Syria is secular under Assad, and Christians are fearful that his regime will end up like Gaddafi, where jihadist thugs, supported and funded by the west, will cleanse the land of all opposing religions once they move into power. The Iranian government is split -- half secular and half Islamic – though I’ve seen interviews of citizens claiming that the culture, particularly the youth, is much more moderate and westernized; yet if the west has its way there too, there's no doubt they'll create a political vacuum, wherein another ayatollah (a la 1953) will move into power. Of course, you’ll always have Islamic nuts, much like you have Christian nuts, but apparently, Islamic countries tend to move away from radical Islam and more towards a moderate or secular social construct until the west interferes. Ironically, one of the most radical fundamentalist countries is our ally -- Saudi Arabia -- where women are beaten and killed just for driving (and now there have been reports that some of the 911 hijackers were funded directly by Saudi officials). The point is, when you look at history, not only does the west fuel this type of radical Islam and terrorist network groups, but these radical regimes are in place because of the west.

[Nathan Poe]

Actually it's NOT just a geographical thing or an economic thing. There are things that are going on that are inherently tied to Islamic theology. Just recently here in the USA a man beat up someone for wearing a "zombie Mohammed" costume. The man who was beat up was scolded by a judge in Pennsylvania ,and the Muslim who beat him up got off scott free. The judge was Muslim ,and said that Muslims have the right (and if you go by Islamic laws like Sharia) to beat up someone who defames Mohammed.

And that is a single case from a single idiot judge whom I think we can all agree should be unceremoniously tossed off the bench a la Roy Moore.

Also there are things like the law in Islam that says an apostate must be put to death.

And I recall reading somewhere that while California has close to 750,000 Muslims, yet less than 30,000 of them go to services. Hooray for westernization! Seems that liberalism has its uses after all.

In countries like Sweden a large percentage (don't have the stats on hand) of rapes are performed by Muslims ,even though they are a minority in the country.

If you're going to say that Muslims have propensity to rape, why don't you just say it, so that we can discuss why?

Also things like "honor killings" are performed in the extreme majority by Muslims when compared to any other group that does this.

And in the extreme minority by Muslims in general -- notice WHERE most (if not all) of those honor killings occur? Again, hooray for liberalism.

These things are happening all over the world ,and the common denominator is Islam.

And yet, we here in the US -- far from the maddening crowd, as it were, have escaped the brunt of it -- any ideas why?

[Nathan Poe]

Unfortunately, these are the regimes that the west prefers and caters to. For example, the Libyan government was secular and socialist. The jihadist didn't want that type of government, so, with the help of the west, the jihadist toppled his regime, cleansed the country of black Africans who supported him and now the government is Islamic, in total disarray, and even more unpredictable. Syria is secular under Assad, and Christians are fearful that his regime will end up like Gaddafi, where jihadist thugs, supported and funded by the west, will cleanse the land of all opposing religions once they move into power. The Iranian government is split -- half secular and half Islamic – though I’ve seen interviews of citizens claiming that the culture, particularly the youth, is much more moderate and westernized; yet if the west has its way there too, there's no doubt they'll create a political vacuum, wherein another ayatollah (a la 1953) will move into power. Of course, you’ll always have Islamic nuts, much like you have Christian nuts, but apparently, Islamic countries tend to move away from radical Islam and more towards a moderate or secular social construct until the west interferes. Ironically, one of the most radical fundamentalist countries is our ally -- Saudi Arabia -- where women are beaten and killed just for driving (and now there have been reports that some of the 911 hijackers were funded directly by Saudi officials). The point is, when you look at history, not only does the west fuel this type of radical Islam and terrorist network groups, but these radical regimes are in place because of the west.

Sad but true -- the West has a terrible history of backing the wrong horses in the Middle East in order to advance its own goals -- which are invariably self-serving and short-sighted. For proof of that, look no further than Saudi Arabia, and ask yourself just why we're such good buddies with them.

As for Iran, I'm in agreement -- that country is on the brink of a cultural revolution of sorts, as the majority of the population is quite young, and none too thrilled with their leadership. The worst thing the US could do (which, even money says we'll probably end up doing) -- and put the screws to Iran's government in such a way that the people will suffer -- I'm thinking anything from economic sanctions to full-blown invasion "liberation, " any of which the ruling party can use as propaganda to turn the populous against us.

That's how tyrants tend to function, in my experience -- they point to a worse tyrant (real or imagined) as a "threat" and use the fear of it to justify their actions. Most of those Middle Eastern regimes have "The Great Satan," a role we've often been too ham-handed and stupid not to fill.

[nickcopernicus]

So the short version is that it's the country, not the religion -- people living in politically and economically deprived hellholes tend to act less than civilized -- who knew?

Nick:
Bin Laden and the bombers on 9/11 certainly weren't living in politically and economiclly deprived hellholes. There are plenty of counter examples to your claim.
Also please don't confuse 'country' with 'region.'

[Nathan Poe]

Nick:
Bin Laden and the bombers on 9/11 certainly weren't living in politically and economiclly deprived hellholes. There are plenty of counter examples to your claim.
Also please don't confuse 'country' with 'region.'

Bin Laden was born in Saudi Arabia (agreed, no hellhole, but we've already established that they're our "friends" for some reason) but thrived in Afghanistan.

[Cerebrum123]

Well Nathan ,here in the USA ,we are enforcing our laws against the above crimes(at least better than over in Europe anyway) ,but in places like Sweden ,Denmark ,Holland etc. ,they are too afraid to press charges unless something worse should happen. As for WHY these crimes are being committed ,the reason again lies with the theology of Islam. Those who aren't wearing a burka ,niqab ,hijaz etc. are asking for it , at least according to Islamic tradition. Women who don't wear them ,ie non-Muslim women (at least on mostly ,not saying that there aren't women who don't wear these things ,but it is considered an outward symbol of being a Muslim),are placed at level even more subhuman than Muslim women. Non-Muslim women were repeatedly captured and raped during the formative years of Islam ,and Mohammed condoned it. Due to this ,non-Muslim women today are viewed in this light ,and similar actions are being taken. Things like this and "honor killings" seem to be far more predominant in places like Europe and Canada. Islamic tradition basically states that men are animals ,and that women need to cover their entire bodies. If they don't then it's their fault that they were attacked. Also Mohammed himself set the the standard for this kind of thing when he himself raped at least one woman ,he called it a "marriage" ,but do you honestly believe that a woman who has had her husband and family killed willingly have sex with the man who led the attack? He also kept sex slaves ,and sold them as well after capturing them in battle.
Yes the judge thing was a one time event ,but what can be learned is that BOTH the judge AND the man who attacked the man wearing the zombie Mohammed costume believed that Islam was more important than the laws of the land. In Islam ,it is taught that non-Muslims are ALL worthy of being attacked ,especially if they do something that offends a Muslim.
In Islam the world is divided in Dar al Islam (the house of Islam) ,and Dar al Harb (the house of war). Anyone living in a country not run by Islam is in Dar al Harb ,and is deserving of being attacked ,and either forced to convert (the only option for anyone other than Jews and Christians),or made into a Dhimmi (this is the other option for Jews and Christians). A Dhimmi is basically someone who pays protection money to Islam. Those who don't convert or pay Dhimmitude are executed. Any Christian I know would most likely rather be willing to die rather than convert for sure ,and very possibly even die rather than be a Dhimmi ,and many people of many faiths would rather die than give up what they believe.

Sean ,we have definitely made mistakes in the past ,and with Obama in the White House ,I think that things will only get worse on this if he gets a real chance to act on this issue. I think what we need to do now is get everyone educated on the situation. I would think that most Muslims really do want things like religious freedom ,and things like tolerance. I think that either they would reject Islam if they knew the whole truth ,try to reform it ,or reject it entirely. At least those who are good people would do this kind of thing. There are definitely people who would still cling to the teachings of Islam ,like wife beating ,and would continue things like suicide bombings ,but I think that this thing could be stopped if more people knew the whole story.

[Cerebrum123]

Sorry double posted the whole thing.

[Nathan Poe]

Well Nathan ,here in the USA ,we are enforcing our laws against the above crimes(at least better than over in Europe anyway) ,but in places like Sweden ,Denmark ,Holland etc. ,they are too afraid to press charges unless something worse should happen.

pardon me for cutting you off here, but this really is what it's all about -- enforcing the laws. We do, they don't -- so why they're having problems and we're not is more or less a no-brainer, isn't it?

As to the why, it is quite informative, but alas, secondary to the bigger issue -- we enforce the laws. I could run off an entire list of practices of various religions which are not only morally repugnant but flat-out illegal: polygamy, ritual sacrifice, cannibalism if you want to get real exotic. And while we allow freedom of religion, we enforce the laws. And we're not afraid to offend the devoutly religious in order to make sure that the rights of everyone -- religious or not -- are safeguarded.

Imagine what would happen if certain religious groups were to try to undermine those laws or demand special treatment for themselves?

On another note --

Any Christian I know would most likely rather be willing to die rather than convert for sure ,and very possibly even die rather than be a Dhimmi ,and many people of many faiths would rather die than give up what they believe.

Hypothetical question: An obviously disturbed maniac runs up to you, points a gun to your head, and asks, "Do you accept Satan as your Lord and Master?"

A convincing "Oh, um... sure! Satan rules!" will save your life. What would be the Christian thing to do?
The moral of the story is that anyone who would rather die than do _______ will find their death wish granted.


It's a sad turn of events that certain Christians toss around the word "persecution" when they mean "inconvenience." What you're describing is a lot closer to real persecution than anything such Christians have ever experienced, and those who would rather die have long since forgotten the days when Christians were basically an underground movement, practiced in secret.

And it might do them good to keep in mind that they are not universally welcomed and loved in the world, and to be thankful for the freedoms this particular country grants them.

Sean ,we have definitely made mistakes in the past ,and with Obama in the White House ,I think that things will only get worse on this if he gets a real chance to act on this issue. I think what we need to do now is get everyone educated on the situation. I would think that most Muslims really do want things like religious freedom ,and things like tolerance. I think that either they would reject Islam if they knew the whole truth ,try to reform it ,or reject it entirely.

Personally, I think most of them will take the path of least resistance -- they'll keep practicing Islam as they see it, without the wife beatings and honor killings, just as many Jews don't practice public stonings anymore (at least not to my knowledge, I've never been to Israel), and there are plenty of Christians who embrace ideas which are somewhat less than Biblical.

Even people who define themselves according to a holy book will find ways to wiggle out of the less than palatable portions.