The Problem of Evil

[siliconwafer]

I've been thinking about why God allows evil. Many non-Christians think that the existence of evil is evidence that God does not exist.

God allows evil to bring about a greater good. For example, Paul was arrested and thrown in jail for preaching the gospel. The greater good that God brought out of this evil thing was that the gospel was advanced throughout the imperial guard and the believers became more bold to proclaim the gospel (Philippians 1:12-14). Joseph's brothers committed evil by selling Joseph into slavery. God brought good out of this evil thing by using Joseph to preserve the lives of people during the famine.

God allows evil in order to show how amazing His love is. Even though everyone is a sinner and deserving of eternal damnation, God demonstrated His love towards sinners by sending His Son to die on the cross for sinners. God loves sinners in spite of their sin. Our natural inclination is to love only good people. We don't want to love wicked people. The fact that God loves us even though we are sinners should make us appreciate God's love. If there were no such thing as sin and if everyone were morally perfect, then we would not appreciate God's love as we do now.

Some people say that God allows evil because He wanted to give people free will. If God didn't allow evil, then people would not have free will. They would be forced to love God; they would be robots. As you probably know, this is called the Free Will Defense. I have some questions for those of you who hold to the Free Will Defense. Why does free will entail the ability to do evil? I was just wondering because God has free will and He doesn't have the ability to sin. Do the saints in heaven have the ability to sin? If not, does this mean that they don't have free will?

[RonC]

Hi SC,

This is a great subject and one that remains a thorn in the side of many. To address it demands addressing the Biblical teachings on and meaning of "evil" – both the OT, especially it’s foundational teachings in Genesis, and the NT, especially the words and teachings of Jesus…

Even brilliant scholars like Bruce Waltke stumble over this when confronting the issue of evil... the serpent in Genesis for instance. Waltke acknowledges (as many do not) that upon completion of creation God issues a divine assessment that all that is created is very good… and that this divine assessment is true for the verses and teachings which follow. However, when confronted with the dilemma of reconciling this divine assessment with his understanding of evil, rather than dealing with the words and teachings of Moses on this subject in those seminal works, rather than questioning his assumptions about evil, Waltke takes the route that there was another creation – it is one of the few places where this truly brilliant scholar stumbles… and he is not alone.

How do we reconcile our concepts of “evil”, with all the meanings/connotations the term has taken on over the millennia, with the Creator’s divine assessment that all of creation is very good? How can there be “evil” if all is very good?

With regard to good and evil, Genesis teaches the following:
- God created all. There is no other creative power.
- God created all in 6 days and when He finished He declared all that was created to be “very good”
- God caused trees to grow in the Garden… among them the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life.
- God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for they would “surely die”.
- The Serpent tells them they won’t die, that their eyes would be opened and they would be like gods, ones knowing good and evil.
- They eat from the Tree and lo and behold, not only were they still alive, but just like the Serpent said, their eyes were opened… and they saw… it appears that the Serpent told them the truth... it also appears that God did not tell them the truth for they were still alive…

The Serpent was correct, their eyes were opened and they saw… what? They saw their physical/material condition… that they were naked… so… didn’t they know that? Either they were real boneheads or they knew they were naked before they ate from the Tree… which means that their eyes were opened and they judged their nakedness… they saw it as “bad”. In that instance they no longer trusted the divine assessment of God that creation is a singularity (all is very good), they believed what their human eyes saw – their physical condition and they saw creation as a duality (good and evil).

This is a recurring theme in the Bible, and I believe that this is why Jesus teaches that we best judge not… but if/when we do, we best not judge by what our human eyes see, but judge righteous judgment – in accordance with the Father’s divine assessment – that all is very good – that is the meaning of the term righteous – in line with God…

If you want to look deeper, it would be into the meaning of the Hebrew terms for “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”… I would participate… just please know that I am a bit ill and long in the tooth… and computer challenged… this was the first long post I have written in almost 2 years!

Best,
RonC

[Hamster]

Why does free will entail the ability to do evil? I was just wondering because God has free will and He doesn't have the ability to sin. Do the saints in heaven have the ability to sin? If not, does this mean that they don't have free will?

You can have freedom without the ability to do evil. The Free Will defense is about a specific kind of freedom, though, the ability to choose between good and evil (allegiance to God or rebellion) if someone enters a state in which they can no longer commit evil acts it's because they chose to be like that. Like if I were to cut off my legs it would be true that I can't ice skate, but I can't ice skate because of choices that I made

[rhutchin]

I've been thinking about why God allows evil. Many non-Christians think that the existence of evil is evidence that God does not exist.

God allows evil to bring about a greater good. For example, Paul was arrested and thrown in jail for preaching the gospel. The greater good that God brought out of this evil thing was that the gospel was advanced throughout the imperial guard and the believers became more bold to proclaim the gospel (Philippians 1:12-14). Joseph's brothers committed evil by selling Joseph into slavery. God brought good out of this evil thing by using Joseph to preserve the lives of people during the famine.

God allows evil in order to show how amazing His love is. Even though everyone is a sinner and deserving of eternal damnation, God demonstrated His love towards sinners by sending His Son to die on the cross for sinners. God loves sinners in spite of their sin. Our natural inclination is to love only good people. We don't want to love wicked people. The fact that God loves us even though we are sinners should make us appreciate God's love. If there were no such thing as sin and if everyone were morally perfect, then we would not appreciate God's love as we do now.

When you use the term, “evil,” what do you mean?

1. Do you mean to use “evil” as an adjective to differentiate evil actions from not evil actions? Thus, when God commands, Do not steal,” then we would say that stealing is evil and not stealing is not evil. Then your question might be, “Why does God say that some actions are evil?”
2. Do you mean to use evil as a noun and identify some force lurking in the world? Thus, when we read, “your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:,” we could say that the devil is evil. Then your question might be, “Why does God allow the devil to destroy people?”
3. Do you mean evil in the sense of a characteristic of people as when we read, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:” we might say that people are inherently evil? Then, your question might be, “Why does God allow people to be evil?”

Can you clarify what you are looking for?

Some people say that God allows evil because He wanted to give people free will.

Shouldn’t this be, “God gives people free will and then allows them to choose willfully to do evil things, like stealing.

If God didn't allow evil, then people would not have free will.

Not necessarily. God could have given people freedom to choose to do only good things and not evil things. Their freedom could be limited but still exercised freely within those limits (This appears to be the situation of the saints in the new earth).

They would be forced to love God; they would be robots. As you probably know, this is called the Free Will Defense. I have some questions for those of you who hold to the Free Will Defense. Why does free will entail the ability to do evil? I was just wondering because God has free will and He doesn't have the ability to sin. Do the saints in heaven have the ability to sin? If not, does this mean that they don't have free will?

I am not sure that this accurately depicts the free will defense (but then, I am not sure how to accurately depict the free will defense and I am not sure that those who defend free will actually know what they want to defend).

[siliconwafer]

Hi SC,

This is a great subject and one that remains a thorn in the side of many. To address it demands addressing the Biblical teachings on and meaning of "evil" – both the OT, especially it’s foundational teachings in Genesis, and the NT, especially the words and teachings of Jesus…

Even brilliant scholars like Bruce Waltke stumble over this when confronting the issue of evil... the serpent in Genesis for instance. Waltke acknowledges (as many do not) that upon completion of creation God issues a divine assessment that all that is created is very good… and that this divine assessment is true for the verses and teachings which follow. However, when confronted with the dilemma of reconciling this divine assessment with his understanding of evil, rather than dealing with the words and teachings of Moses on this subject in those seminal works, rather than questioning his assumptions about evil, Waltke takes the route that there was another creation – it is one of the few places where this truly brilliant scholar stumbles… and he is not alone.

How do we reconcile our concepts of “evil”, with all the meanings/connotations the term has taken on over the millennia, with the Creator’s divine assessment that all of creation is very good? How can there be “evil” if all is very good?

With regard to good and evil, Genesis teaches the following:
- God created all. There is no other creative power.
- God created all in 6 days and when He finished He declared all that was created to be “very good”
- God caused trees to grow in the Garden… among them the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life.
- God tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for they would “surely die”.
- The Serpent tells them they won’t die, that their eyes would be opened and they would be like gods, ones knowing good and evil.
- They eat from the Tree and lo and behold, not only were they still alive, but just like the Serpent said, their eyes were opened… and they saw… it appears that the Serpent told them the truth... it also appears that God did not tell them the truth for they were still alive…

The Serpent was correct, their eyes were opened and they saw… what? They saw their physical/material condition… that they were naked… so… didn’t they know that? Either they were real boneheads or they knew they were naked before they ate from the Tree… which means that their eyes were opened and they judged their nakedness… they saw it as “bad”. In that instance they no longer trusted the divine assessment of God that creation is a singularity (all is very good), they believed what their human eyes saw – their physical condition and they saw creation as a duality (good and evil).

This is a recurring theme in the Bible, and I believe that this is why Jesus teaches that we best judge not… but if/when we do, we best not judge by what our human eyes see, but judge righteous judgment – in accordance with the Father’s divine assessment – that all is very good – that is the meaning of the term righteous – in line with God…

If you want to look deeper, it would be into the meaning of the Hebrew terms for “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”… I would participate… just please know that I am a bit ill and long in the tooth… and computer challenged… this was the first long post I have written in almost 2 years!

Best,
RonC

It is true that God created the world good. Moreover, God originally created man good. You don't have to be sinner in order to be a human being. Man is the one who brought evil into this world; he is the one who gets the blame for it.

Did man die spiritually on the day that he sinned?

[siliconwafer]

You can have freedom without the ability to do evil. The Free Will defense is about a specific kind of freedom, though, the ability to choose between good and evil (allegiance to God or rebellion) if someone enters a state in which they can no longer commit evil acts it's because they chose to be like that. Like if I were to cut off my legs it would be true that I can't ice skate, but I can't ice skate because of choices that I made

I guess freedom would be the ability to do as one ought to do or the ability to act according to one's desires.

Freedom does not entail the ability to do evil. God has freedom, but He does not have the ability to do evil.

[siliconwafer]

When you use the term, “evil,” what do you mean?

1. Do you mean to use “evil” as an adjective to differentiate evil actions from not evil actions? Thus, when God commands, Do not steal,” then we would say that stealing is evil and not stealing is not evil. Then your question might be, “Why does God say that some actions are evil?”
2. Do you mean to use evil as a noun and identify some force lurking in the world? Thus, when we read, “your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:,” we could say that the devil is evil. Then your question might be, “Why does God allow the devil to destroy people?”
3. Do you mean evil in the sense of a characteristic of people as when we read, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:” we might say that people are inherently evil? Then, your question might be, “Why does God allow people to be evil?”

Can you clarify what you are looking for?

When I wrote "evil", I meant "sin." I was trying to ask this question: Why does God allow people to sin?

Shouldn’t this be, “God gives people free will and then allows them to choose willfully to do evil things, like stealing.

Yes, that is correct.

Not necessarily. God could have given people freedom to choose to do only good things and not evil things. Their freedom could be limited but still exercised freely within those limits (This appears to be the situation of the saints in the new earth).

I guess freedom would be the ability to do as one ought or the ability to act according to one's desires.

I am not sure that this accurately depicts the free will defense (but then, I am not sure how to accurately depict the free will defense and I am not sure that those who defend free will actually know what they want to defend).

The Free Will Defense says that if God did not allow people to sin, then people would not have free will. God wanted us to have free will so He had to give us the ability to do evil.

[RonC]

It is true that God created the world good. Moreover, God originally created man good. You don't have to be sinner in order to be a human being. Man is the one who brought evil into this world; he is the one who gets the blame for it.

Did man die spiritually on the day that he sinned?

Hi again,

Your post raises questions. I will try to keep it simple as you have done by bringing up only one.

If (and we agree) God created man good does man have the power to alter God’s creation? I do not think so… which means I read the scripture as clearly indicating that man in the eyes of the Divine is good…

…and, yes, a consequence of Adam and Eve eating from the Tree was spiritual death…

Best,
RonC

[themuzicman]

I've been thinking about why God allows evil. Many non-Christians think that the existence of evil is evidence that God does not exist.

God allows evil to bring about a greater good. For example, Paul was arrested and thrown in jail for preaching the gospel. The greater good that God brought out of this evil thing was that the gospel was advanced throughout the imperial guard and the believers became more bold to proclaim the gospel (Philippians 1:12-14). Joseph's brothers committed evil by selling Joseph into slavery. God brought good out of this evil thing by using Joseph to preserve the lives of people during the famine.

That doesn't explain evil that has no good from it. Many times evil only destroys, and no good results at all.

God allows evil in order to show how amazing His love is. Even though everyone is a sinner and deserving of eternal damnation, God demonstrated His love towards sinners by sending His Son to die on the cross for sinners. God loves sinners in spite of their sin. Our natural inclination is to love only good people. We don't want to love wicked people. The fact that God loves us even though we are sinners should make us appreciate God's love. If there were no such thing as sin and if everyone were morally perfect, then we would not appreciate God's love as we do now.

That's just silly. That's like saying a parent allows a child to fall and be seriously injured to the point of their life being threatened so the parent can show how much they love the child in rescuing them. One does not show how much they love someone else by allowing them to be harmed so that one can rescue them.

To take this further, it would be like having the power to stop a bus full of people from being harmed and their lives threatened, and then only saving some of them, letting the rest die intentionally, so that those that were saved would have a greater appreciation for being saved. That's not loving.

Some people say that God allows evil because He wanted to give people free will. If God didn't allow evil, then people would not have free will. They would be forced to love God; they would be robots. As you probably know, this is called the Free Will Defense. I have some questions for those of you who hold to the Free Will Defense. Why does free will entail the ability to do evil? I was just wondering because God has free will and He doesn't have the ability to sin. Do the saints in heaven have the ability to sin? If not, does this mean that they don't have free will?

1) God wants a loving relationship with His people. This requires both free will AND the ability to reject this relationship. A relationship without the ability to walk away is slavery.
2) True free will requires a decree by God to not violate that free will, otherwise, it isn't truly free. In making a decree, God has enacted something that He will not violate. Thus, our decisions are made apart from God allowing them (as God will not violate His own decree), and evil exists solely because man violates God's commands.

[Phat8594]

God has freedom, but He does not have the ability to do evil

Well since God is by definition good, it is impossible for God to do anything but good. To say that God has the ability to do evil is to essentially say that God has the ability to be something besides Himself. And...well...that just nonsensical.

When people say that man has "free will" it means something much different that to say that God has "free will", because God is much different than man. God is only limited by Himself, while man is limited by an infinite number of things.

However, I would suggest that you think of free will as the ability to choose within your circumstance. Free will does not mean that you can do anything, or even anything that you want, but rather that you have real choices and the ability to actually act on either choice. But again, your choices are limited by your circumstances (whether from birth, outside circumstances, or by previous choices).

So in the case of typical free will discussions, those who tout free will merely assert that man has the ability to respond to God. They have a real choice (and can act on either): obey God, or disobey God.

[Phat8594]

God allows evil to bring about a greater good.

God allows evil in order to show how amazing His love is

Some people say that God allows evil because He wanted to give people free will.

How does God "allow" evil without free will?

[rhutchin]

I guess freedom would be the ability to do as one ought or the ability to act according to one's desires.

The Free Will people do not use this definition. They say that free will only exists if one is able to choose counter to their desires.

The Free Will Defense says that if God did not allow people to sin, then people would not have free will. God wanted us to have free will so He had to give us the ability to do evil.

I think the free will defense says that if God did not allow people to choose to be saved, then people do not have free will and are robots. I don't think it really has anything to do with sin.

[rhutchin]

How does God "allow" evil without free will?

Free will has nothing to do with the identification of an action as evil or good. Whether a person is able to do good or evil has nothing to do with free will. A person with ability to act can do either good or evil and can do so if he has free will or does not have free will.

[Phat8594]

Whether a person is able to do good or evil has nothing to do with free will. A person with ability to act can do either good or evil and can do so if he has free will or does not have free will.

Its whether a person has the power of contrary choice.



Again (since you didnt answer it the first time):



How does God "allow" evil without free will (the power of contrary choice)?

[RBerman]

Here we go again! Have fun, guys.