The Problem of Evil

[RonC]

Please forgive my impatience, but in all honesty, this free will and contrary choice debate is juvenile at best. Biblical Free Will is simply about man’s ability to repent. Metanoeo – change one’s heart, change one’s thinking… and if man cannot do that then Jesus was a fraud going around telling everyone to do it! Don’t hijack this thread, open another one and I will participate.

As far as God “allows” evil, if you don’t understand the meaning of the term “evil” as Moses revealed it in Genesis 1,2 and 3 the question is meaningless... you see, all God created is good...

RonC

[Phat8594]

Please forgive my impatience, but in all honesty, this free will and contrary choice debate is juvenile at best

Why do you see it as juvenile? (this is an honest question)

Biblical Free Will is simply about man’s ability to repent. Metanoeo – change one’s heart, change one’s thinking… and if man cannot do that then Jesus was a fraud going around telling everyone to do it!

Yep..I more or less agree.

Don’t hijack this thread, open another one and I will participate.

The OP mentioned free will in regards to the problem of evil. Free will seems quite relevant to the problem of evil. If man does not have free will then how can the blame lie on anyone but God? Manmust possess the power of contrary choice.

The first example of this is in the Garden of Eden, when God commanded Adam to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So the question arises, why did God put the tree there in the first place? Without the tree and without the command, Adam could not disobey God.

As far as God “allows” evil, if you don’t understand the meaning of the term “evil” as Moses revealed it in Genesis 1,2 and 3 the question is meaningless...

And how do you see it?

I see it as essentially perversion of God's good creation...disobedience to God...deciding for oneself as what is good, rather than submitting to God.

you see, all God created is good...

Agreed, but God also created a universe where evil was possible....did He not?

[RonC]

Hi SC,

First, let me thank you and commend you for responding in a truly loving way to my post which was harsh to say the least. Your example is wonderful supportive – shining a light on a better path.

Why do you see it as juvenile? (this is an honest question)

Because it is as important as debating the color of Jesus’ sandals. What is the point of debating what cannot be known when there are so many words and teachings that are available and clear that we do not fully understand…

Yep..I more or less agree.

In all honesty, that is what I seek – where my thoughts are disagreed with for scriptural cause or agreed with… it is my way of keeping myself in line… sort of peer review…

The OP mentioned free will in regards to the problem of evil. Free will seems quite relevant to the problem of evil. If man does not have free will then how can the blame lie on anyone but God?

But the OP is about the nature of evil – what the scriptures tell us about it, it’s origins and manifestations… blame is for a different discussion… and maybe if we examine the origin and nature of it we discover there is no blame…

Manmust possess the power of contrary choice.

"contrary choice" is a modern psycho-babble fabrication(originally coined by Gordon Olson I think in his book The Truth Will Make You Free) and has no basis in scripture. We cannot discuss scripture which addresses this (and neither did Olson) because the concept is not available in the Semitic culture and language of the time of Genesis. It just becomes a distraction, an arena where we can all wax eloquent, blinded by our own brilliance -- sound and fury signifying nothing...

The first example of this is in the Garden of Eden, when God commanded Adam to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So the question arises, why did God put the tree there in the first place? Without the tree and without the command, Adam could not disobey God.

This would be the second subject (after studying the meaning of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil) The idea that God “commanded” as in a captain commanding his troops. The Hebrew does not have this as its primary connotation. The primary connotation of the Hebrew term is “instruct” or “give direction”. The Latin Vulgate translation uses the Latin term praecipio which connotes “teach, advise, warn, instruct”. The Greek used in the LXX has a connotation of “enjoin” as well. What happens to our understanding of Genesis if God is not commanding Adam and Eve like George Patten to his troops, but advising or instructing them as a father does his children? To understand the origins and nature of “evil” we may need to accept Jesus’ teachings on God as a father and not impose a military commander mentality onto the Creator…

And how do you see it?

I think the above gives some idea…

I see it as essentially perversion of God's good creation...

that cedes to some created entity the power to pervert the creation of the Almighty… a big metaphysical step I think…

disobedience to God...deciding for oneself as what is good, rather than submitting to God.

Here we may agree again… but the question I have is on what basis or information do Adam and Eve choose not to follow God’s instructions?

Agreed, but God also created a universe where evil was possible....did He not?

Without question… yet we must reconcile that with the divine assessment that all created is very good… God’s words “all” must include potentialities mustn’t it?

Best,
RonC

[rhutchin]

Please forgive my impatience, but in all honesty, this free will and contrary choice debate is juvenile at best. Biblical Free Will is simply about man’s ability to repent. Metanoeo – change one’s heart, change one’s thinking… and if man cannot do that then Jesus was a fraud going around telling everyone to do it! Don’t hijack this thread, open another one and I will participate.

Given that a person is a sinner, that person who repents would be taking an action contrary to his true desires would he not? How do you define the term, Free Will? Is Free Will the power of contrary choice or just the power to choose?

As far as God “allows” evil, if you don’t understand the meaning of the term “evil” as Moses revealed it in Genesis 1,2 and 3 the question is meaningless... you see, all God created is good...

Do you see evil as something other than ~good? Until God declares that which is good, can evil exist?

[rhutchin]

...yet we must reconcile that with the divine assessment that all created is very good… God’s words “all” must include potentialities mustn’t it?

Yep. So, after declaring that all was good, God allowed something to change. Consequently, we might conclude that Satan fell after the creation, and only because God ordained it to happen.

[siliconwafer]

How does God "allow" evil without free will?

God permits people to do evil. He does not force people to do evil.

[siliconwafer]

1) God wants a loving relationship with His people. This requires both free will AND the ability to reject this relationship. A relationship without the ability to walk away is slavery.
2) True free will requires a decree by God to not violate that free will, otherwise, it isn't truly free. In making a decree, God has enacted something that He will not violate. Thus, our decisions are made apart from God allowing them (as God will not violate His own decree), and evil exists solely because man violates God's commands.

Suppose a person's love for God proceeds from his own will or heart. Suppose that his love for God is not coerced. Then, his love would be genuine even if he did not have the ability to sin or rebel against God.

[RonC]

Hi RH,

Given that a person is a sinner, that person who repents would be taking an action contrary to his true desires would he not?

The Greek term translated as “repent” means “change of mind” or “change of heart”. If someone changes their mind then what they do from that point of repentance is exactly what they want to do. Changing ones mind or heart may actually make clearer exactly what one truly wants.

How do you define the term, Free Will? Is Free Will the power of contrary choice or just the power to choose?

It is the ability to change one’s mind.

Do you see evil as something other than ~good?

I see “through a glass, darkly”. If I acknowledge that then I know that there are only 2 possibilities:
1. To proceed basing my life on what I perceive.
2. To accept the Creator’s divine assessment of all created.

Until God declares that which is good, can evil exist?

I need to know what you mean by the term “evil”. Are you understanding the term as Moses first revealed it to us in Genesis?

Yep. So, after declaring that all was good, God allowed something to change.

That is your conjecture… the scripture does not say God allows anything…

Consequently, we might conclude that Satan fell after the creation, and only because God ordained it to happen.

We can conclude whatever we choose I guess… free will…?? I see no scriptural support for that conclusion over any other… So, to me the conjecture is a distraction from the daily seeking to not stray from the path.

Best,
RonC

[themuzicman]

Suppose a person's love for God proceeds from his own will or heart. Suppose that his love for God is not coerced. Then, his love would be genuine even if he did not have the ability to sin or rebel against God.

I reject your supposition. Love is a choice we make to devote ourselves to another in whatever the nature of that relationship is. Thus, the ability to reject God remains.

[Phat8594]

God permits people to do evil. He does not force people to do evil.

Yeah, and how does he "permit" if people dont have free will (power of contrary choice)?

[RBerman]

Yeah, and how does he "permit" if people dont have free will (power of contrary choice)?

That's not what "Free will" is, that's how.

[Phat8594]

Because it is as important as debating the color of Jesus’ sandals. What is the point of debating what cannot be known when there are so many words and teachings that are available and clear that we do not fully understand…

I think it can be known. Even you said yourself that if people can't actually repent...what does that mean about God's commands?

"contrary choice" is a modern psycho-babble fabrication

Well, I have never heard of this man...or read any of his stuff....I wrote it to be as clear as possible as to what is meant by free will....the problem is that different people have different definitions of what free will means. It is only a further explanation of definition.

and has no basis in scripture

The implications are throughout scripture through God's words, and God's commands.

e.g.

Gen 4

6 The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted?[b] And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for[c] you, but you must rule over it.”

Joshua 24

14 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

This would be the second subject (after studying the meaning of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil) The idea that God “commanded” as in a captain commanding his troops.

Whether its a command or fatherly advice...they disobeyed.

that cedes to some created entity the power to pervert the creation of the Almighty… a big metaphysical step I think…

I don't think its a big metaphysical step....rather I think it is obvious...unless you think that rape or child molestation is part of God's design for sex.

God’s words “all” must include potentialities mustn’t it?

Nope. In fact, in saying this, I think it is you who has made the big metaphysical step per se.

[Phat8594]

That's not what "Free will" is, that's how.

Well this is why I said power of contrary choice: to hopefully be clear in my communication.

But here is the issue: how does one "permit" or "allow" (both have passive connotations) if God actively brings about the action?

In other words if man does not have the power of contrary choice, then how does the chain stop to make God merely permit an action rather than causing it? (if we are getting off subject, don't feel as though we have to continue this discussion)

[RBerman]

Well this is why I said power of contrary choice: to hopefully be clear in my communication.

That's why I raised my familiar quibble. We don't have the same definition of "free will," so of course we'll disagree about what free will entails with respect to divine sovereignty.

But here is the issue: how does one "permit" or "allow" (both have passive connotations) if God actively brings about the action? In other words if man does not have the power of contrary choice, then how does the chain stop to make God merely permit an action rather than causing it? (if we are getting off subject, don't feel as though we have to continue this discussion)

That depends on how we define God "causing" something. To me, that implies primary rather than secondary causation. The only things God has primarily caused are (1) creation and (2) miracles. Everything else, God allows or permits through secondary causes such as the unfolding casade of events in the universe. The good and evil choices of men fall into that category.

[Phat8594]

That depends on how we define God "causing" something. To me, that implies primary rather than secondary causation. The only things God has primarily caused are (1) creation and (2) miracles. Everything else, God allows or permits through secondary causes such as the unfolding casade of events in the universe. The good and evil choices of men fall into that category.

Agreed. It comes down to how we define God "causing" something, so I understand and can appreciate what you say about primary and secondary causation.

However, where I am confused is don't you believe that man created man with partia particular nature (which in turn determines our desires)? And aren't those desires what determine what man will do?