The Problem of Evil

[RBerman]

Hey RB,

Everything God made is very good... at least according to the Creator... and I don't think there is any other "sense"... God created man (and everything else) and Jesus taught "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". He also taught us to pray to Our Father who is in Heaven and that the Kingdom of Heaven is within each of us...

Genesis reveals the source of our being. All men are children of God. Men cannot be children of anything other than God because there is no other creative power.

Everything God made was good in Genesis 1. But was it still good by the end of Genesis 3? Jesus' comments in Matthew 5-7 are addressed to believers, as his own warnings at the end of that passage make clear.

[RonC]

Everything God made was good in Genesis 1. But was it still good by the end of Genesis 3?

I see no evidence that some other existence had the power to alter divine creation, do you?

Jesus' comments in Matthew 5-7 are addressed to believers,

Matthew 7:28 says that when HE finished "the people were astonished". The Greek term actually means the throng or crowd... not believers or faithful...

as his own warnings at the end of that passage make clear.

I am not sure what you mean here...

[RBerman]

I see no evidence that some other existence had the power to alter divine creation, do you?

I don't know what "some other existence" means in this context. The Bible doesn't elaborate as to when evil entered the picture, but the serpent is there in Genesis 3, doing evil, and getting Adam and Eve to do evil as well.

Matthew 7:28 says that when HE finished "the people were astonished". The Greek term actually means the throng or crowd... not believers or faithful.

Do you believe that settles the discussion?

I am not sure what you mean here...

Jesus closes his sermon with a warning that those who ignore it will suffer disaster. The good things of which he spoke are for those who trust him, not for everyone without distinction.

[siliconwafer]

Yeah, and how does he "permit" if people dont have free will (power of contrary choice)?

God does not force people to do evil. It is not like people are forced to do something that they do not want to do. People do evil voluntarily.

[siliconwafer]

Well this is why I said power of contrary choice: to hopefully be clear in my communication.

But here is the issue: how does one "permit" or "allow" (both have passive connotations) if God actively brings about the action?

In other words if man does not have the power of contrary choice, then how does the chain stop to make God merely permit an action rather than causing it? (if we are getting off subject, don't feel as though we have to continue this discussion)

God does not attach invisible strings to our bodies and pull on them like a puppeteer controlling a marionette. Evil proceeds from a person's heart or will.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

God does not attach invisible strings to our bodies and pull on them like a puppeteer controlling a marionette.

Exactly so! That is why free will, some sense of personal autonomy, is so crucial in any worthwhile conversation about salvation... Yes, God created us in His Image with that autonomy, and foreknows our entire history from the beginning, but we are not puppets created in His Image, because God is not a puppet...

Evil proceeds from a person's heart or will.

I agree - And so also does Good...

THEREFORE...

"Happy and blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God..."

AND...

Purification of the heart is the core of discipleship in the praxis of the faith...

The Bible calls it metanoia...

We call it repentance...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

The reason that it's universal is that it's a product of "where we are born and to whom," i.e. fallen men generating more fallen men as a matter of nature, without the need for God to miraculously intervene in each person to give them a sinful nature they wouldn't have otherwise had.

So then what about Adam made him sin? Certainly his desire right?

So if desire is a product of where we are born and to whom, then what does that say about God or the world he created (originally)?

Perhaps its just my ignorance, but I just don't see how chain stops if our decisions are merely determined by our nature rather than by man's will (I am assuming the power of contrary choice)

[Phat8594]

God does not force people to do evil. It is not like people are forced to do something that they do not want to do. People do evil voluntarily.

What does voluntarily mean? That is determined by your nature?

In other words can a person with a sinful nature make any right decisions, or have the ability to want to do good in any sense of the word?

[Phat8594]

First, just for clarification, I was addressing solely the “free will/contrary choice” debate when I said that it cannot be know… I was not addressing the Biblical teachings on man’s ability to change his mind.

Tom--ay--toe---Tom--ah--toe.

Neither phrase (“contrary choice” nor “free will”) are Biblical phrases, so to debate their Biblical foundations or lack thereof as if they are Biblical concepts is in my estimation fruitless.

And neither is the Trinity. That was coined by good 'ol Tertullian. So should we not discuss the Biblical foundations of the Trinity?

I would use these same verses to support my biblical understanding that man was created with the capacity to change his mind. Once you use those verses to support a belief that man has the capability to make “contrary choice” you exit the Bible and enter the realm of Jung and Hume. The Bible makes pretty clear that man has the capacity to change his mind, to re-think…

Again...I think we are in the realm of semantics. The term isn't the issue, but rather what the term entails.

I don’t claim to know the mind of God in any manner shape or form…

Well certaintly we know something....after all, God has given us certain revelation...and from that revelation, we know that rape, fornication, incest, etc. are not part of God's purposed design for sex.

Perversion in what sense of the word… and do you think man has the ability to change divine creation?

God certaintly has given man authority over certain things. While man cannot create ex-nihilo, or turn something into nothing (i mean actually/literally nothing), man can certaintly pervert God's creation. In other words, man can use creation for things that are not within its intended purpose.

For example God created sex. Sex's intended purpose is within a proper marriage, expressing oneness. Sex is not intended merely for physical pleasure, for pagan worship, for rape, etc.

[siliconwafer]

So then what about Adam made him sin? Certainly his desire right?

So if desire is a product of where we are born and to whom, then what does that say about God or the world he created (originally)?

Perhaps its just my ignorance, but I just don't see how chain stops if our decisions are merely determined by our nature rather than by man's will (I am assuming the power of contrary choice)

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they did not have a sinful nature. They were originally created good. They could have resisted the temptation to sin. They were not created with the desire to sin. How did their desire to sin come into existence?

[siliconwafer]

What does voluntarily mean? That is determined by your nature?

In other words can a person with a sinful nature make any right decisions, or have the ability to want to do good in any sense of the word?

Doing something voluntarily means doing something because you have the desire to do it. Suppose person X does not want to give person Y any money. Person Y forces person X to give him some money by putting a gun to his head. Person X gives person Y some money, not because he had the desire to give him the money, but because he was forced to give money. Person X's action is not voluntary.

[RonC]

I don't know what "some other existence" means in this context.

I sense a reluctance to respond directly... perhaps I am wrong. I wrote: "I see no evidence that some other existence had the power to alter divine creation, do you?" To put it another way, do you believe that there is anything other than God which can alter or change creation.

The Bible doesn't elaborate as to when evil entered the picture,

Actually the Bible is very clear with regard to the concept of “ra’”: Genesis 2:9

but the serpent is there in Genesis 3, doing evil, and getting Adam and Eve to do evil as well.

The Serpent was in the garden and Genesis 1:25 (reiterated in verse 26) makes clear that God created “everything that creepeth upon the earth”… which includes the Serpent because that is exactly what serpents do… and in Genesis 1:31 we have God’s divine assessment of all created: it is very good. The scripture is also very clear.

Do you believe that settles the discussion?

It clarifies things. You said “Jesus’ comments in Matthew 5-7 were addressed to believers”. I am just clarifying that it is not necessarily what the scriptures say -- that everyone in the throng was a believer in the modern sense of the term. There are some who insist that the term “follow” is synonymous with “believe”… that is open to serious question (see John 6).

Jesus closes his sermon with a warning that those who ignore it will suffer disaster.

… there are consequences… like being tossed out of the garden for eating that darn fruit!!

The good things of which he spoke are for those who trust him, not for everyone without distinction.

the words and teachings are for all, but not all will heed...

Best,
Ron C

[RonC]

And neither is the Trinity. That was coined by good 'ol Tertullian. So should we not discuss the Biblical foundations of the Trinity?

Actually, the Trinity is very clearly addressed by Jesus “baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…” and there are several other places… the term trinity means threesome or three and Jesus clear spoke of three here…

Again...I think we are in the realm of semantics. The term isn't the issue, but rather what the term entails.

“Contrary choice” is a term that can be logically argued against when it come to man, changing one’s mind, changing one’s thinking or understanding is something we are all familiar with… Choice stems from our understanding at the time of choice, if our understanding changes it effects our choice… Jesus and Moses are teaching on a much deeper level of the inner workings of man, it is not the choice that is the issue, it is our understanding. That is why the first teaching of Jesus’ public ministry was that we need to change our understanding, not that we need make different choices. Free will is about changing one’s mind, not the choice that manifests because one changes one’s mind!

Well certaintly we know something....after all, God has given us certain revelation...and from that revelation, we know that rape, fornication, incest, etc. are not part of God's purposed design for sex.

God certaintly has given man authority over certain things. While man cannot create ex-nihilo, or turn something into nothing (i mean actually/literally nothing), man can certaintly pervert God's creation. In other words, man can use creation for things that are not within its intended purpose.

Nonetheless this must been viewed through the lens of the Creator’s divine assessment of creation – that it is very good… we cannot simply toss that out because we cannot reconcile with it…

For example God created sex. Sex's intended purpose is within a proper marriage, expressing oneness. Sex is not intended merely for physical pleasure, for pagan worship, for rape, etc.

Actually I think that the primary and intended purpose of sex is to "be fruitful and multiply"...

Best,
RonC

[Rdr. Arsenios]

That is why the first teaching of Jesus’ public ministry was that
we need to change our understanding, not that we need make different choices.

What we think is itself a choice...

For we are to take every thought captive...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

I sense a reluctance to respond directly... perhaps I am wrong. I wrote: "I see no evidence that some other existence had the power to alter divine creation, do you?" To put it another way, do you believe that there is anything other than God which can alter or change creation.

That depends on what you count as "alter or change creation." When we cut down trees and build a house from them, we "change creation." But miracles are a specific sort of change in creation which is on a whole other level, and all miracles come from God alone, though sometimes through human agency.

Actually the Bible is very clear with regard to the concept of “ra’”: Genesis 2:9

The first mention of "evil" in the Bible is not necessarily the appearance of "evil."

The Serpent was in the garden and Genesis 1:25 (reiterated in verse 26) makes clear that God created “everything that creepeth upon the earth”… which includes the Serpent because that is exactly what serpents do… and in Genesis 1:31 we have God’s divine assessment of all created: it is very good. The scripture is also very clear.

The serpent was cursed to creep later, in Genesis 3:14. It's not clear whether he crept prior to that, though the language would seem to say not. More to the point, the Bible doesn't tell us how it came to be that the serpent rebelled against God.

It clarifies things. You said “Jesus’ comments in Matthew 5-7 were addressed to believers”. I am just clarifying that it is not necessarily what the scriptures say -- that everyone in the throng was a believer in the modern sense of the term. There are some who insist that the term “follow” is synonymous with “believe”… that is open to serious question (see John 6).

Certainly mixed audiences heard the various exhortations delivered in Scripture.