Defining Total Depravity - Ephesians 4

[Phat8594]

There is big difference on how we understand faith that if we will delve further, we would end up going different, even opposite, directions.

It seems you misunderstand the nature of faith. Faith in and of itself is not a work....rather its resting and trusting in God's work.

[FarEastBird]

The text plainly states that God "is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him"...

We seek...
God rewards...

AND...

We must seek...
DILIGENTLY

We do works... [diligently seek Him]
God rewards... [with the GIFT of salvation]

We please God by turning to Him in repentance...

Arsenios

Well, if we will take the Bible pieces by pieces, then we will go nowhere. The Jews were blinded by the beauty of the law, that they never understood Deut 27:26 the way Paul explained it. You can isolate Phil 2:12 to argue against me, and sure you can have a good reason of your belief if we take the verse alone. But do you honestly believe that that is the way of rightly "deviding" the word of God? Aren't you aware that the the scriptures both contain the the law of works and the gospel which are contradictory to each other? Can't you even see the very example of Phil 2:12-13 where it encourages us to work, yet also convinces us that our works are but God's works? So what was the real message of Phil 2:12-13, that we can work our salvation, or it is God who works on us?

And what was the core message of Rom 10:1-3? Is it about submission, or about emotional response to God? Isn't it that the Jew's love of God, and of Paul's desire thay they(Jews) might be saved, a good impression that they were indeed "submitting to" and "believing in" God? Paul put emphasis that the Jews failed in "knowledge" to distinguish the faith in God that he preaches, to just mere believing and submitting like the Jews.

And also, the message of Rom 10:1-3 is in response to the message that it is not of him that runs or wills, but of God who shows mercy. For why would God condemned ignorant people when it is God himself who gives knowledge and understanding? Why would God condemn when God has the remedy for them to submit to God rightly? Paul's point is that we cannot be holy unless God himself will work on us, by giving us that knowledge, that faith of Christ.

Rom 10:1-3 actually applies unto us who are here in this forums. For I am convinced that most of us love God, and are willing to give our lives unto God. But unto what are we really devided, isn't it in knowledge?

So you say that we need repentance. And that you know that we differ in understanding the gospel. And I tell you what, either one, or none, of us, have the gospel. And for sure, either one, or none, of us will not repent of preaching an erroneous gospel. Sure this repentance is required by God in either one, or both, of us. Unless God will give us the knowledge of the gospel, we cannot repent of preaching an erroneous gospel. That repentance is a thing we can never do, unless God gives unto us the understanding of the gospel. This is a kind of "submission" and "repentance" that we cannot do unless God initiates himself by giving us the knowledge(faith) of the gospel. And this way goes my point of Rom 10:1-3.

FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Faith in and of itself is not a work....rather its resting and trusting in God's work.

What do you do then with Jude 1:3?

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Who is unable to repent from evil?
And who is unwilling?
God hardened Pharoah's heart, yes?
But only after prolonged lack of repentance from evils...

All, up to that point, are ABLE to turn to repentance...
FEW are willing to do so...

And the proof is in the wide manner of sinners who DO turn to repentance...
You cannot point to anyone who cannot turn to repentance...

I mean is there anyone you can look into the eyes of him and say:
"YOU are UNABLE to repent of your EVILS!"...???

All can...
Few do...

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

It seems you misunderstand the nature of faith. Faith in and of itself is not a work....rather its resting and trusting in God's work.

Not at all. My point is that you are misunderstanding what it meant of simply having a faith in contrast with having the faith "of" Christ. Anyone can claim to rest and trust God. But if one does not know who God is, how could that person rest and trust in Him? Can you spot the difference, or sense in it? Apply it to Heb 11:6.

FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Well, if we will take the Bible pieces by pieces, then we will go nowhere.

Well, you have to take the Bible for what it ACTUALLY says...
If you take it for what it does NOT say,
they you will go EVERYWHERE!

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

Well, you have to take the Bible for what it ACTUALLY says...
If you take it for what it does NOT say,
they you will go EVERYWHERE!

Arsenios

I kept explaining that you are the one who does not actually know what the Bible actually says......


Perhaps, let us agree to disagree.


Peace,

FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

You can isolate Phil 2:12 to argue against me,
and sure you can have a good reason of your belief if we take the verse alone.
But do you honestly believe that that is the way of rightly "deviding" the word of God?

Every Scripture you cite argues against you...

Rom 10:1-3
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

This plainly shows that one must SUBMIT ONESELF to the righteousness of God in order to be saved...

The Jews failed to submit themselves to the righteousness of God, and therefore they were not saved...

That is what the text says...

And that is fully consistent with all other passages of Scripture...

And I do agree that we disagree...

God bless you, my Brother...

I am gladdened that you care about Truth...

Their ignorance was of God's Righteousness, that they thereby could not submit themselves TO it, yes?
What does this mean to you?

How does one submit one's self to the righteousness of God?

Is this not a reasonable question from this text?

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

Their ignorance was of God's Righteousness, that they thereby could not submit themselves TO it, yes?

Yes, that is exactly the reason.

What does this mean to you?

We should ask ourselves why the Jews are being condemned because of ignorance. It is NOT issue that the Jews are "submitting" unto God by heart and will. We can clearly sense that the failure of the Jews is speaking "specifically" about submission through "understanding/knowledge"; NOT in their submission through heart and will.

How does one submit one's self to the righteousness of God?

Now that is the issue I was explaining to make you understand faith. You see, both of us can claim submitting to the righteousness of God. But there is/are distinctions between us that makes our submission to the righteousness of God "not the same." -- it is the way how we "understand" the righteousness of God. To wit, we cannot know God, nor our willingness to submit to God would not avail us to be given understanding(see the Jews!). We can also see that, in this forum, most of us are willing to trust/submit/give our lives, etc, to God. Yet not all of us have the same "understanding." Because it is not of us who runs and who wills, but rather it is because it is God who choose, or had chosen even before the world begun, who will have knowledge of Him.

NO ONE can submit to God's righteousness, because we are totally DEPRAVED to know the righteousness of God. But God gives the understanding to whom He had chosen, and therefore, thee cjhosen are the only only ones who can submit to God. Knowledge and understanding is the difining factor of true faith, not mere "trust" or "submission" that comes from ourselves.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent - John 3:17

But such knowledge and understanding is not within our ability to gain.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal. - Mat 11:27

Is this clear enough?

FEB

[Phat8594]

Not at all. My point is that you are misunderstanding what it meant of simply having a faith in contrast with having the faith "of" Christ. Anyone can claim to rest and trust God. But if one does not know who God is, how could that person rest and trust in Him?

That's why man can only respond to God's call. Man does not take the initiative...God does; man only responds.

Furthermore, I think you should know that when the Bible speaks of "knowing God" and being "known by God", the knowing isn't referring to intellectual knowledge as you seem to think (from what I can tell); rather that "knowing" is an intimate knowledge, as a husband knows his wife, so God knows the church.


I am still waiting on where in the Bible we see God giving man saving faith.

[FarEastBird]

That's why man can only respond to God's call. Man does not take the initiative...God does; man only responds.

Furthermore, I think you should know that when the Bible speaks of "knowing God" and being "known by God", the knowing isn't referring to intellectual knowledge as you seem to think (from what I can tell); rather that "knowing" is an intimate knowledge, as a husband knows his wife, so God knows the church.

Here goes and author of confusion. You just know it like saying to your espouse "You are the ONE, I can feel it!"

If you have the heart to face God with that conviction, or should we rather say "feeling", then I cannot do anything about that.


Didn't the Bible say, it is not of him that willeth, or runneth? Will not in the end, it was your will that made yourself saved by responding?

I am still waiting on where in the Bible we see God giving man saving faith.

If you submit to my understanding of what faith is, you know it is in the Bible.

I am not interested making a circus.


FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Their ignorance was of God's Righteousness, that they thereby could not submit themselves TO it, yes?

Yes, that is exactly the reason.

You need to remember that the IGNORANCE of the Jews came of their willful IGNORING of Him, for they KNEW Him to be of God, as Nicodemos told Christ... THIS is why they DID not submit themselves to the Righteousness of God of which they were in IGNORE-ance...

We should ask ourselves why the Jews are being condemned because of ignorance.

They were not ignorant because they had never heard of Christ - THAT would have been excusable... They KNEW, and they killed Him anyway...

It is NOT issue that the Jews are "submitting" unto God by heart and will.

Yes, it IS EXACTLY that issue... They did NOT submit to God by heart and will - They loved their sins more than the Truth - Remember the woman caught in the very act of adultery? How Christ wrote with His finger on the dirt, and how, beginning with the oldest, all departed and no one could cast the first stone? Remember, even at His arrest in the Garden, he healed the man's ear? Oh they KNEW, my Brother... Their will not only did not submit to God, but killed Him... Have you FORGOTTEN that Christ CAME TO THE JEWS??? In the Name of Elijah the Prophet, John the ForeRunner???

We can clearly sense that the failure of the Jews is speaking "specifically" about submission through "understanding/knowledge"; NOT in their submission through heart and will.

Christ said: "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. " This is a problem with their will...
And again: " If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."

[quote]Now that is the issue I was explaining to make you understand faith. You see, both of us can claim submitting to the righteousness of God. But there is/are distinctions between us that makes our submission to the righteousness of God "not the same." -- it is the way how we "understand" the righteousness of God. To wit, we cannot know God, nor our willingness to submit to God would not avail us to be given understanding(see the Jews!).[quote]

As I just showed you, [see above], Christ disagrees with you... They were unwilling to KNOW ... They IGNORED what they were confronted with in Christ, Who was their stumbling block...

We can also see that, in this forum, most of us are willing to trust/submit/give our lives, etc, to God. Yet not all of us have the same "understanding." Because it is not of us who runs and who wills, but rather it is because it is God who choose, or had chosen even before the world begun, who will have knowledge of Him.

I have not met any, myself included - I prefer ice cream and candy and a nice car to the service of our Lord...

NO ONE can submit to God's righteousness, because we are totally DEPRAVED to know the righteousness of God.

IF you believe this, then you make Holy Writ into a satanic lie...

But God gives the understanding to whom He had chosen,

He gave it to the Jews who rejected what they saw and knew...
Which the Gospel proves and Christ affirms and you deny...

and therefore, the chosen are the only only ones who can submit to God.

The Jews were the Chosen People of God, and they REJECTED Him, so your words have no truth to them...

Knowledge and understanding is the difining factor of true faith, not mere "trust" or "submission" that comes from ourselves.

Scripture shows the lie of these words, for it tells us in plain words that it was the FAILURE of the Jews to SUBMIT THEMSELVES to the Righteousness of God which they IGNORED that COST THEM salvation...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"If you submit to MY understanding..."

Lord have Mercy!

These words alone condemn your words...

May we never submit to human understanding,

And especially YOURS or MINE...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

Here goes and author of confusion. You just know it like saying to your espouse "You are the ONE, I can feel it!"

?? Could you please clarify what you are even saying here...?? I can't respond to it unless I can understand your point.

Didn't the Bible say, it is not of him that willeth, or runneth? Will not in the end, it was your will that made yourself saved by responding?

Firstly, you are ripping a verse out of context and out of author's original intent. The verse you quote (from Romans 9) simply states that salvation does not depend on man's works; if you look closely at that chapter, you will also see that it does not depend on physical ancestry. These were two things that the Jews thought they were saved by (works and heritage).

Secondly, you are conflating choice and salvation. They are two separate things; not one in the same. Man's choice does not save him....God saves him.

If you submit to my understanding of what faith is, you know it is in the Bible.

I am not interested making a circus.

Well perhaps you can show me? After all, sola scriptura...right? Not sola Calvin....or sola catechism.... So on that basis, I won't submit to your understanding until you show me where it is in the Bible. I won't submit to your understanding...but I will be more than glad to submit to God's word..

You should be interested in understanding and espousing whats actually in the Bible though...right?

[FarEastBird]

You need to remember that the IGNORANCE of the Jews came of their willful IGNORING of Him, for they KNEW Him to be of God, as Nicodemos told Christ... THIS is why they DID not submit themselves to the Righteousness of God of which they were in IGNORE-ance...

They were not ignorant because they had never heard of Christ - THAT would have been excusable... They KNEW, and they killed Him anyway...

Yes, it IS EXACTLY that issue... They did NOT submit to God by heart and will - They loved their sins more than the Truth - Remember the woman caught in the very act of adultery? How Christ wrote with His finger on the dirt, and how, beginning with the oldest, all departed and no one could cast the first stone? Remember, even at His arrest in the Garden, he healed the man's ear? Oh they KNEW, my Brother... Their will not only did not submit to God, but killed Him... Have you FORGOTTEN that Christ CAME TO THE JEWS??? In the Name of Elijah the Prophet, John the ForeRunner???

Honestly, that is too much of a stretch. You are convincing me that ALL Jews had that same kind of rejection of Christ. It is very likely that you will judge the same way ALL who would not profess your faith.

Nicodemus did not doubt the miracles, it was his ignorance that made him to distance himself to Christ. He does not understand the truth of being born again.

Christ said: "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. " This is a problem with their will...

And again: " If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."

Did they really see, or just claiming that they see? Isn't they we both agree that they are ignorant?

IF you believe this, then you make Holy Writ into a satanic lie...

You dare call me such when my faith is that which is given of God? Will you dare call everyone as such who disagree with your understanding of the Bible?

I tell you what, it is the same ignorance of yours that you will be rejecting the truth. For you have the faith indeed that you claim saves you, but see you cannot have the faith that I have.

Praise your faith, but it will never get you to understand the knowledge that God had given me. And I tell you what, those who have the same faith as yours will not come to believe your professed understanding of the Bible either. Go figure.

FEB