Defining Total Depravity - Ephesians 4

[FarEastBird]

Lord have Mercy!

These words alone condemn your words...

May we never submit to human understanding,

And especially YOURS or MINE...

Arsenios

My claim is that my knowledge is given of God. Your rush to willfully twist my words will not give you a good record in God's sight.

FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Honestly, that is too much of a stretch. You are convincing me that ALL Jews had that same kind of rejection of Christ. It is very likely that you will judge the same way ALL who would not profess your faith.

The Jews clearly rejected Christ - You cannot deny this - OBVIOUSLY not EVERY Jew rejected Christ...

[quote]Nicodemus did not doubt the miracles, it was his ignorance that made him to distance himself to Christ.
He does not unThe Gospel , writing decades after the events, of his activities FROM him... How ELSE would they have known?

Did they really see, or just claiming that they see? Isn't they we both agree that they are ignorant?

The SAW and they REJECTED... That is what the Bible says, and Christ in it...

You dare call me such when my faith is that which is given of God?

I said you are teaching a lie, not that you are a liar - I know you are sincere... But what you teach is false...

Yours is not the Historic Apostolic Faith of the Church Christ established upon this earth by His death and resurrection...
Your church is one of man-made doctrines that you cannot demonstrate in Scripture...
Do you think you speak truth because you have had spiritual experiences from God?

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

The Jews clearly rejected Christ - You cannot deny this - OBVIOUSLY not EVERY Jew rejected Christ...

They SAW and they REJECTED... That is what the Bible says, and Christ in it...

The Jews rejected Christ out of IGNORANCE; that is an honest and more fair observation. Paul himself said:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1Cor 2:7-8

As you claimed, it is not just that one is punished because of ignorance.

Even Christ prayed that the Jews be forgiven because of their ignorance. It is true that we will not be condemn because of ignorance, but one will not be saved EITHER IF THE PERSON REMAINS IGNORANT.

Your position is that the blessings of God will come through having a "blind" faith, a blind trust. But I give you Paul as an example who did not submit to that blind faith, rather we see the obvious that it is God who worked on him revealing His message to him.

And I said that you cannot please God through "blind" faith/trust either -- as I showed to you Heb 11:6. Also, for you to think that your "blind" trust made you earned favor is quite unfair. For what is the difference of your "blind" trust to those of the Calvinist's, Arian's, methodist's, and other denominations which are against your teachings? Were they given the knowledge of God because of such "blind" faith/trust? Search and judge fairly.

I said you are teaching a lie, not that you are a liar - I know you are sincere... But what you teach is false...

Thank you for recognizing my sincerity, I do submit that you are sincere as well. But don't you see, that if that is true, that at the least, we both possess that "blind" faith, right? But why don't we have the same knowledge and understanding of the Bible? Would you dare say that your blind faith is better? In what way, by works? As I request, search and judge fairly.

Yours is not the Historic Apostolic Faith of the Church Christ established upon this earth by His death and resurrection...
Your church is one of man-made doctrines that you cannot demonstrate in Scripture...

I guess you are not aware of Paul's prophecies, and of the apostasy that follows in the church.
We have the Scriptures to base our verity as of God's. It seem to show that you do not have the true faith, as we discuss, then how would you even have the truth?

Do you think you speak truth because you have had spiritual experiences from God?

Arsenios

That is for you to know, not to ask.

FEB

[Phat8594]

My claim is that my knowledge is given of God. Your rush to willfully twist my words will not give you a good record in God's sight

The problem is when your words do not line up with scripture. Are we to believe God's Holy Word, or you who claims to have special knowledge from God?


By the way...

still waiting on where in scripture we see God giving people saving faith......

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Honestly, that is too much of a stretch. You are convincing me that ALL Jews had that same kind of rejection of Christ. It is very likely that you will judge the same way ALL who would not profess your faith.

The Jews rejected Christ... You do not know this?

Nicodemus did not doubt the miracles, it was his ignorance that made him to distance himself to Christ. He does not understand the truth of being born again.

Nicodemos is a Christian Saint taught by Christ Himself - He did not distance himself from Christ... He was Christ's "Secret Disciple"... He would sneak over there at night to learn from Christ... He CLOSED the distance between himself and Christ... He LEARNED the Truth from the Truth-Christ...

Christ said: "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. " This is a problem with their will...

And again: " If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin."

Did they really see, or just claiming that they see? Isn't they we both agree that they are ignorant?

Absolutely not... They KNEW, and the killed Him... You are just wrong...

Now, they did not FULLY know, that is true... But they knew that they were killing a man of God - They did not know that Christ was God - Even the Disciples were not yet fully knowledgable of THAT...


Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

We have the Scriptures to base our verity as of God's.

Every scripture you show disproves your "position"...

When I show you how, you run off to another scripture...

Look - Adam ate of the tree of klnowledge of good AND evil...

So good AND evil are found on earth...

Total Depravity is total evil...

Therefore it is NOT Biblical...

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

.........

Total Depravity is total evil...

Therefore it is NOT Biblical...

Arsenios

Arsenios, just come to think of it: you do not believe in total depravity because there is something in you that triggered your salvation. You may deny this but that is what reflects in your belief. I guess you always read the Bible that way, even it obvioulsy gives you confusions.

I am at peace that we agree to disagree.

Sincerely,
FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Arsenios, I just came to think of it:
You do not believe in total depravity because
there is something in you that triggered your salvation.

You may deny this but that is what reflects in your belief.
I guess you always read the Bible that way,
even it obvioulsy gives you confusions.

I am at peace that we agree to disagree.

Sincerely,
FEB

Actually, by life experience, I should be agreeing with you... I was an atheist my first 36 years, and did not like Christians period... I lived a very prodigal life, and when God came, I was at the end of it at 36...

But you see, the first thing I asked of God was that He take me all the way in Him, that it be a total involvement... And at tht time, I did not think He was the God of the Christians - And He let me think that for 14 years, and then told me, and led me into Orthodoxy... And Orthodoxy does not disciple total depravity - Anyone in the Church teaching it would be a heretic...

But those 36 years were not in vain, for they cultivated a rich soil in my heart that thirsted and hungered for truth unto death... So when He came, I was very prepared to receive Him, with NO preconceptions whatsoever - The recovering Evangellicals in my parish all tell me that I had a great advantage over them in acquiring the Faith... I did not CARE what was being taught, you see, because I was there to acquire whatever it was, because God sent me there to acquire Him... I had nothing to UN-learn... Because I was and am a recovering atheist...

So you cannot explain me away so easily and in so psychologically shallow and trite and safe and dismissive a manner... I mean, you CAN, of course, but the truth is not in you in your doing so...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

Arsenios, just come to think of it: you do not believe in total depravity because there is something in you that triggered your salvation. You may deny this but that is what reflects in your belief. I guess you always read the Bible that way, even it obvioulsy gives you confusions.

I am at peace that we agree to disagree.

Sincerely,
FEB

Your avoidance of the question:

"Where in scripture do we see God giving someone saving faith?"

is quite telling, IMO.


I hope and pray that you will earnestly seek what is actually in God's Holy Word...and pray in earnest humility that He reveal truth to you.

Until you can show it in God's word, I suggest you take a less dogmatic stance on the issue.

[FarEastBird]

Actually, by life experience, I should be agreeing with you... I was an atheist my first 36 years, and did not like Christians period... I lived a very prodigal life, and when God came, I was at the end of it at 36...

But you see, the first thing I asked of God was that He take me all the way in Him, that it be a total involvement... And at tht time, I did not think He was the God of the Christians - And He let me think that for 14 years, and then told me, and led me into Orthodoxy... And Orthodoxy does not disciple total depravity - Anyone in the Church teaching it would be a heretic...

But those 36 years were not in vain, for they cultivated a rich soil in my heart that thirsted and hungered for truth unto death... So when He came, I was very prepared to receive Him, with NO preconceptions whatsoever - The recovering Evangellicals in my parish all tell me that I had a great advantage over them in acquiring the Faith... I did not CARE what was being taught, you see, because I was there to acquire whatever it was, because God sent me there to acquire Him... I had nothing to UN-learn... Because I was and am a recovering atheist...

So you cannot explain me away so easily and in so psychologically shallow and trite and safe and dismissive a manner... I mean, you CAN, of course, but the truth is not in you in your doing so...

Arsenios

I am a Catholic Church as a child not knowing anything about the Bible. But when I come to approach the Bible, I was shocked that what is being taught by the church is not reasonable to me. I approached a Baptist and asked a question regarding sin; and we talked about 1John 3:4-9. I ridiculed him when he said that "he does not sin anymore." - that is what the verse says anyway. He was not able to give me a satisfying answer. But at that point, it give me a resolve that the Bible is not something merely to obey, but to understand. I noticed, even before, that churches are not devided by obedience, but of understanding the Bible. I was glad that I was independent to any religion when I kept studying the Bible. Religious sects have enticing approach of explaining things that you can't almost see their flaws; especially when you will only consider the verses they use to promote their teachings. What I noticed of you, is that you have that attitude of focusing only on those verses you think supports you. That is surely blinding and will not get us to have a fruitful discussion.That is how many religious sects fail to understand the Bible.

Submission by heart is not at all that makes you an elect. Paul, as we are speaking of him, did not speak of his submission as the reason of his election, rather he said, "But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace." As you, for sure, have read, our election has nothing to do with our willing and running, and this surely fit of his description of his calling being called of being "separated by God from the womb" and of saying we "have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." And further, he said, ""Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." God does everything in us, thus Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You can read that what saves us is the power of God, and that is what the gospel that is being preached by Paul(1Cor 1:18). If you claim that you have, in any ways, have contributed to your election, then you are by nature justifying yourself according to your works.

What I will request is that try to examine these things I have said. I would try to explain our differences on my next post. Feel free to ask so I can add it in my next post.

FEB

[Phat8594]

I approached a Baptist and asked a question regarding sin; and we talked about 1John 3:4-9. I ridiculed him when he said that "he does not sin anymore." - that is what the verse says anyway.

Actually...the passage you quote says that Christians dont make a practice of sinning. 1 John does not propogate the idea the Christians do not sin anymore.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother

Furthermore, its important to understand John's words in light of the gnosticism he was writing against.


If John was trying to say that Christians do not sin anymore, he would not have said this:

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked

And you should note, that we know that we have come to know Him, by keeping His commandments. You can't say you know Him, and not keep His commandments. John makes it very clear; you can't separate knowing God (intimate knowledge...not knowing 'of' God) from keeping His commandments.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The Bible is not something merely to obey, but to understand. I noticed, even before, that churches are not divided by obedience, but of understanding the Bible.

Then understand THIS:

"2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 [U WHOEVER says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments IS A LIAR, ][/U]and the truth is not in him,
5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected.
By this we may know that we are in him:
6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

And I will add this:
IF you do not WALK the TALK, you cannot UNDERSTAND the TALK...
You MUST put your polluted mouth where your dirty little toes ARE,
because your MIND is ALWAYS where your FEET are,
which is WHY we must KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS...

I added the above because you may have missed these words in the quotation:
we have come to know him, if we are keeping his commandments

Submission by heart is not at all that makes you an elect.

Then you have just made Paul and the Bible into a LIAR when it is written:

For THEY being ignorant of God's righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness,
HAVE NOT SUBMITTED THEMSELVES
TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

You see, you have not read the sentence above...
It does NOT say that they were not saved because they were ignorant...
It DOES say that they did not SUBMIT THEMSELVES...
It was their ignorance ot God's Righteousness that
CAUSED their FAILURE TO SUBMIT THEMSELVES TO GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS
But it was the FAILURE TO SUBMIT THEMSELVES
That CAUSED them to lose their salvation...

Try reading that sentence in your own language...

Paul, as we are speaking of him, did not speak of his submission as the reason of his election,

He is speaking of the loss of salvation of the Jews...
Now you want to change the subject and speak of his personal election...

rather he said, "But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace." As you, for sure, have read, our election has nothing to do with our willing and running, and this surely fit of his description of his calling being called of being "separated by God from the womb" and of saying we "have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." And further, he said, ""Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." God does everything in us, thus Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You are speaking of God's Foreknowledge and Providence,
not of some predestination given by God to some and witheld from others...

You can read that what saves us is the power of God, and that is what the gospel that is being preached by Paul(1Cor 1:18). If you claim that you have, in any ways, have contributed to your election, then you are by nature justifying yourself according to your works.

God saves those who walk after Him...
YOU are responsible for YOUR WALK...
And God knows what your walk will be, so He provides for it...
Pretty simple, actually...

What I will request is that [you] try to examine these things I have said.

So have I done already repeatedly for you...

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

Thanks for the response, Arsenios.

Don't be so hasty to judge for I can see that you are ignorant of the mystery of the gospel.

As Paul said, you have to "rightly devide" the word of God. You see, as I told you, the Bible contains both the law of works, and the law of faith. So you have to rightly divide which laws belong to to which. Now, there is a FAITH that pertains to WORK!! Not because you say it is faith, it is therefore not of works. No. When it comes to YOUR faith, you have to convert that into work. That is the faith that James was speaking about, saying,

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:14-18

That faith that James is talking about is something that goes with work. You have to show that faith through your WORKS. And, of course, you are doomed to fail of that faith.

As you well know, EVERYONE is by nature working out that same faith of yours through working the law, which is simply to love one another. But will we be saved with that faith that which is of works? No.

When we go to perpection, we LEAVE those things. The book of Hebrews said,

"Therefore LEAVING the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of FAITH towards GOD." Heb 6:1

You see, that faith that you speak of is OUR faith that is being set aside when we go to perfection. Why? It is because that is simply is but works, and we will fail justifying ourselves unto God with such faith.

Now the faith that saves us is the faith OF Christ, not our faith.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Gal 2:16

Now the faith that saves us is the faith that we receive by hearing the word, not of literally hearing because some literally heard but did not perceive and understand what they heard. A lot of Christians have faith IN Christ, but they do not have the faith OF Christ. In the end, they are confessing an erroneous Christ, and erroneous gospel of salvation; and at the same time denying the power of God being revealed in the gospel-- for unto us Christ is the WISDOM and the POWER of God.

Paul warned us,

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:6-8

Beware that you are perverting the gospel of Christ.

I caution you not to be hasty in judging me.

Sincerely,
FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Don't be so hasty to judge for I can see that you are ignorant...
I caution you not to be hasty in judging me.

Sigh...

I am sorry YOU feel judged...

You are not your thoughts...

A.

[hedrick]

I don't see what all this discussion has to do with the passage. The author is exhorting people who are followers of Christ (in context, surely "Gentiles" is being used to refer to people who are not part of the faith) to show it in their lives. He is saying that there should be a difference between how we behave and how those without faith do. Calvin surely agrees with that.

I see nothing in the passage that says how we got to be in Christ in the first place. It describe the difference between how people who are in Christ and those who aren't think and act. Or at least how we *should* think and act. While those who have died and been raised with Christ are no longer "slaves to sin," unfortunately we don't always show it. So this kind of exhortation may be needed.

There are two extremes to be avoided. On the one side, we have people who think that justification is tied to our actions so tightly that if someone sins seriously they are no longer Christian. Paul knows better. While we are new beings in Christ, the old flesh is still alive in us. On the other hand are people who think that we can be Christian without any change. Again, Paul knows better. Those we are in Christ have died to sin. If the new life isn't active, we're kidding ourselves.

This all seems to be pretty much independent of the Calvin / Arminius disagreement.