Defining Total Depravity - Ephesians 4

[FarEastBird]

I don't see what all this discussion has to do with the passage. The author is exhorting people who are followers of Christ (in context, surely "Gentiles" is being used to refer to people who are not part of the faith) to show it in their lives. He is saying that there should be a difference between how we behave and how those without faith do. Calvin surely agrees with that.

I see nothing in the passage that says how we got to be in Christ in the first place. It describe the difference between how people who are in Christ and those who aren't think and act. Or at least how we *should* think and act. While those who have died and been raised with Christ are no longer "slaves to sin," unfortunately we don't always show it. So this kind of exhortation may be needed.

There are two extremes to be avoided. On the one side, we have people who think that justification is tied to our actions so tightly that if someone sins seriously they are no longer Christian. Paul knows better. While we are new beings in Christ, the old flesh is still alive in us. On the other hand are people who think that we can be Christian without any change. Again, Paul knows better. Those we are in Christ have died to sin. If the new life isn't active, we're kidding ourselves.

This all seems to be pretty much independent of the Calvin / Arminius disagreement.

I totally disagree. Paul's message implies that our knowledge of God defines our actions towards God. Our act of worship towards God must be defined through our faith, not of the actions -- for we are demanded to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And sure this is a difference of worshipping God as a Calvinist or as an Arminians. Either, or Both, cannot be Truth.

The Athenaeans also worship God(Acts 17:23). But, in their ignorance of God, they do not do the due True worship of God; they worship God with works. That is the walk referred by Paul as how the Jews also walk in God -- and that is being changed in having knowledge of the truth in God. Thus Paul spoke of having a "renewed" mind.

I would argue, that Arminians are by nature judging us of election by works. And it would be quite incomprehensible why would they(Arminians) judge themselves forgiven of their sins, and of their actions, yet they judge other's actions and ignoring the same faith (that they claim they possess) that others also possess.

FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I see nothing in the passage that says how we got to be in Christ in the first place. It describe the difference between how people who are in Christ and those who aren't think and act. Or at least how we *should* think and act. While those who have died and been raised with Christ are no longer "slaves to sin," unfortunately we don't always show it. So this kind of exhortation may be needed.

Indeed...

Yet there is more, because it tells us not only how we SHOULD be acting, but it tells us the CONSEQUENCES of acting and not acting as we should...

4:21-23
Just as the Truth is in Christ Jesus,
you to set aside according to your former way of life
the old man the corrupt according to the cravings of deceit
to be being renewed by the Spirit of your nous [mind]...

The last line in this overly literal translation [mine] is crucial, for it shows, in the ongoing present infinitive, the ongoing nature of that renewal of one's nous by the Spirit... It is in the present infinitive tense... This means that the renewal is ongoing... And that means that it is PROGRESSIVE... It means that if you do NOT comport yourself in this new way of life, putting off the old man and his deceitful lustings, that you will NOT be having the ongoing renewal of your mind by the Spirit...

That ongoing renewal of your nous by the Spirit in this life IS your salvation...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

I would argue, that Arminians are by nature judging us of election by works.

And on what do you base this on?

And it would be quite incomprehensible why would they(Arminians) judge themselves forgiven of their sins, and of their actions, yet they judge other's actions and ignoring the same faith (that they claim they possess) that others also possess

To be honest, I don't even understand what you are trying to say...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Paul's message implies that our knowledge of God defines our actions towards God.
Our act of worship towards God must be defined through our faith, not of the actions --
for we are demanded to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

This is simply not true... This is not Paul's message - his criticism of the Jews was that they had zeal for God without knowledge, and hence failed in their actions of faith... God GAVE them knowledge, and they rejected it, for God gave them of Himself, His Son Jesus Christ... And they crucified Him... For us to worship in Spirit and in Truth means that we are to worship in Jesus Christ, which is the Ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ - eg We are to worship IN His Body, the Church, and in the Holy Spirit sealed in us in our entry INTO the Body of Christ...

We are not DEMANDED to worship... Those are Muslims, not Christians... They demand and enforce... Christians invite and participate...

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

And on what do you base this on?

Arminians, even most Calvinists, would claim salvation by having faith IN Christ. And as I said, you will certainly be searched in that faith through their works, hence works. And none for sure can justify themselves by their faith IN Christ.

To be honest, I don't even understand what you are trying to say...

Perhaps, tell me simply how are you saved, and let us discuss it.

FEB

[FarEastBird]

............
... God GAVE them knowledge, and they rejected it,........
.....
Arsenios

I already told you that they did not have the knowledge. HAD THEY KNOWN IT, they would not have had crucified the Lord of glory. The Jews are not rejecting knowledge because they are ignorant of it, in the first place. Want me to show you the verse again?


When the Jews rejected Christ's good works, they are not rejecting the goodness of the works but rejecting Christ for they do not understand his doctrines. We, in this modern world, we also do not simply believe in a man because we see miracles in them. The Catholics claim that their are miracles in their churchm, yet we do not simply believe them, right? There are people who, in the name of lust and greed, would do good to another. Some strive to be good, just to feed their pride that they are better than others, even of all. Your harsh picture of the Jews is truly unfair. The Jews can be seen like any other religious people, that in their ignorance, they believed and taught wrong ways without truly realizing their mistake. You should be beware of this kind of ignorance and mistake.


FEB

[FarEastBird]

......And as I said, you will certainly be searched in that faith through their works, hence works. And none for sure can justify themselves by their faith IN Christ

I meant "they will be searched in that faith through their works"


FEB

[Phat8594]

Arminians, even most Calvinists, would claim salvation by having faith IN Christ. And as I said, you will certainly be searched in that faith through their works, hence works. And none for sure can justify themselves by their faith IN Christ

Who would claim that they justify themselves? Only God justifies.

Perhaps, tell me simply how are you saved, and let us discuss it

Saved by grace through faith. Simple as that.

[Phat8594]

The Jews can be seen like any other religious people, that in their ignorance, they believed and taught wrong ways without truly realizing their mistake. You should be beware of this kind of ignorance and mistake.

The problem is that the OT and (and thus Judaism) points to Jesus, our Messiah. Christianity, in fact, is true Judaism; its Judaism completed.

[FarEastBird]

Who would claim that they justify themselves? Only God justifies.

God, AS A JUDGE, is the one who justifies indeed. We, as we present ourselves unto God, justify ourselves in through our beliefs; though we may be wrong.

Your attitude to correct something that is not wrong is nothing but a sign of a presence of an evil heart, IMO.

Saved by grace through faith. Simple as that.

What is the faith? Does the Catholics, Arminians, and Calvinists, or John Piper has it?

FEB

[FarEastBird]

The problem is that the OT and (and thus Judaism) points to Jesus, our Messiah. Christianity, in fact, is true Judaism; its Judaism completed.

Christ, when he came, completely eradicated the law, so what true Judaism are you talking about?

But most of all, Paul said:

For in Christ Jesus neither CIRMCUMCISION availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


For in Jesus Christ neither CIRMCUMCISION availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The "faith" and being "new creature" that we preach has nothing to do with Judaism(circumcision) or Gentile-ism(uncircumcision).

You got yourself a different gospel, it seems.


FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

............
... God GAVE them knowledge, and they rejected it,........

I already told you that they did not have the knowledge.

God still GAVE them the Truth, and they rejected the Truth...

HAD THEY KNOWN IT, they would not have had crucified the Lord of glory.

Of course they did not KNOW the Truth, but that was NOT because God FAILED to give it to them...

The Jews are not rejecting knowledge because they are ignorant of it, in the first place.

Matthew13:12-14
For whosoever is having, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance:
but whosoever is not having, from him shall be taken away even that he is having.

For which reason I am speaking to them in parables:
because seeing, they are not seeing;
and hearing theyare not hearing,
neither are they understanding.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:


You are arguing against Christ...

When the Jews rejected Christ's good works, they are not rejecting the goodness of the works but rejecting Christ for they do not understand his doctrines.

They were not WILLING to understand them... Some were and did... One actually understood fully and rejected Christ, remember him?

We, in this modern world, we also do not simply believe in a man because we see miracles in them. The Catholics claim that their are miracles in their churchm, yet we do not simply believe them, right? There are people who, in the name of lust and greed, would do good to another. Some strive to be good, just to feed their pride that they are better than others, even of all. Your harsh picture of the Jews is truly unfair. The Jews can be seen like any other religious people, that in their ignorance, they believed and taught wrong ways without truly realizing their mistake. You should be beware of this kind of ignorance and mistake.

The Jews were NOT like ANY other religious people - They were the chosen People of God, and they rejected God willfully...
And their precious Jerusalem was destroyed...

The Orthodox Christian Church in Russia did the same thing, with a similar result under the atheists, and are now repenting and rebuilding...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Your attitude to correct something that is not wrong is nothing but a sign of a presence of an evil heart, IMO.

Moralistic finger-pointing is a mark of the Pharisee, my Brother...
Remember that when you point your finger at your brother in condemnation,
Remember then that there are THREE fingers pointing BACK at you yourself...

Arsenios

[FarEastBird]

............
... God GAVE them knowledge, and they rejected it,........

God still GAVE them the Truth, and they rejected the Truth...

Of course they did not KNOW the Truth, but that was NOT because God FAILED to give it to them...

God will not fail if He wishes to. Remember why I mentioned Paul? Salvation is not of him that runs or wills; contrary to your erroneous gospel seem to imply.

The truth is that God is himself responsible for the blindness of the Jews. God could will to show them the gospel, just like He did to Paul, but He did not. Because the blindness of Israel is part of the work of God to show the mystery of His salvation(Rom 11:25-29).

Thus, when Christ came, he never spoke clearly of the mystery of God to the Israelites. Read verses 10 and 11 of what you quoted in Matthew; Christ spoke to Israel in parables. Evidently, the Jews were demanding that Christ would speak to them plainly(John 10:24).

And even at the time of the apostles, we can see how Paul even communicated "privately" his gospel to the other apostles(Gal2:2). This implies that there is a mystery in the gospel that they intentionaly hid to Israel. There is a prophecy of passing the kingdom of God unto the Gentiles, that was the purpose of hiding the mystery of the Gospel to Israel. And thus Paul was declaring the Gospel plainly to the Gentiles(Rom 15:16). Thus is why Paul communicated his gospel "privately" only to those of reputation in the Church.

Going back to the issue of election without "willing and running," Paul, in Rom 11:25-32, was explaining how some of the Jews, in spite of their ignorance, and as enemies of the gospel, are accounted to salvation. Paul was saying that the Jews were blinded for a reason(a reason which is something you are not wary of), and thus we cannot account their blindness as issue against their election. As Paul said: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. And this is contrary to your erroneous gospel. You are misjudging that all Israel who rejected Christ are not elect.

FEB

[Rdr. Arsenios]

As Paul said: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
And this is contrary to your erroneous gospel.
You are misjudging that all Israel who rejected Christ are not elect.

FEB

So YOU say...

The Truth is that what you are missing in this private interpretation of yours is this:
The ACTUAL MEANING of the text is not human repentance, by God's...
The gifts and the calling of God are without GOD's repentance...

An astonishing error on your part...

Re-read the text of Roman's 11...

Arsenios