For RH: The order of Justification and Faith

[Phat8594]

This thread is for RHutchin, who requested I post a new thread about Justification and Faith.

To summarize our dialogue up to this point:

I have asserted that faith precedes justification, because we are justified by faith.

RH has asserted that justification precedes faith, and that scritpure attests to this fact.



I am happy to hear from anyone that can show how someone can be justified before they have faith from scripture. Personally I think it is abundantly clear from scripture that no one can justified apart from faith.


Feel free to pipe in.

[rhutchin]

This thread is for RHutchin, who requested I post a new thread about Justification and Faith.

To summarize our dialogue up to this point:

I have asserted that faith precedes justification, because we are justified by faith.

RH has asserted that justification precedes faith, and that scritpure attests to this fact.



I am happy to hear from anyone that can show how someone can be justified before they have faith from scripture. Personally I think it is abundantly clear from scripture that no one can justified apart from faith.

In the Scriptures, we read,

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:24

"Therefore being justified by faith,.." Romans 5:1

"...being now justified by his blood,...For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,..." Romans 5:9-10

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:" Romans 8:30

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;... That being justified by his grace,... Titus 3:5-7

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24

The object is to reconcile all these verses (and perhaps others) and explain what God is telling us about justification and how faith fits in.

[George Blaisdell]

The object is to reconcile all these verses (and perhaps others) and
explain what God is telling us about justification and how faith fits in.

One of the issues is English... In English, the relationship between righteousness and justification is not etymologically apparent, whereas in the Greek, it is abundantly apparent... To make English sound like Greek usage in these texts, justification must be seen as "being made righteous"... So that to be justified is to be made righteous...

Now there were righteous men under the Law, but their righteousness was their own virtue and choice... Christians have this as well, for they are obedient to the Commandments of Christ, in the same human manner that the righteous Jews of the OT were obedient to the Law... But the difference is that in Christ, this is then established in us by Christ Who is IN US, and it is established by Him in us as a gift of Grace... So that there is a difference in the two righteousnesses, that of the Old Covenant, and that of the New... While both show man doing man's part to have right relationship with God by obedience to God, it is the action of God WITHIN a man that differs from the righteousness of the OT Jew who was "filled with the Holy Spirit," Which then departs... Whereas in the NT Saints, as per the Baptism of Christ, the Holy Spirit descends "as a dove" and ABIDES, for in the Baptismal waters of regeneration, this Holy Spirit is the Agent of regeneration IN us IN Christ... For the Christian is "Christed", which means "Annointed"... Where God abides within... And it is this that the Jews did not have prior to Christ, but their prophets foresaw Christ's coming to give this to us...

So then the question becomes: "What IS righteousness? What is this righteousness which is given to us by God?" We know that the old righteousness is man's self-conformity to the Law of Moses, and in this there is great reward... But much more is the Righteousness of God which is given to Christians... And the question is: "Why?" And the answer is in the meaning of the word righteousness, which means: "Right Relationship with God." And you can see that this understanding covers both old and new Covenants, for in the old, man places himself in right relationship with God by living in obedience to the Law, in letter and in spirit... In Christ we do the same, living in obedience to the commandments of Christ, and in this, we are no different that the old Covenant Jews, but when we DO this, which is called repentance, God responds through His Body, the Church, with Baptism, in which we are given the Holy Spirit within us, and this is the oneness with God that is Christ's Righteousness in us... You see, it is oneness with God that IS true righteousness...

So that in order that we attain oneness with God, we enter into a repentant relationship with Him being discipled by His Holy Body, the Church, wherein we learn His commandments, to observe [eg to do/obey] them... And then we are Baptized into Christ, even into His Death on the Cross, and put on Christ, and are reborn in the Holy Spirit now abiding in us, and then grow to maturity in Christ, perfecting our Faith in deeds as we 'run the race set before us"... And it is in the overcoming of the forces running against us, indeed arrayed against us, the demonic forces of evil, that we mature in the Faith, for the overcoming is glorious, and we ascend from glory to glory... [And sometimes we fall...] And all of this is the WORK of Faith which is man's to do by Grace... We can claim no credit for victories, and full responsibility for defeats...

So that this is the relationship between Faith and justification, in that we are justified in our KEEPING of the Faith, for it is in this that we find God's Grace accruing to us as we mature in the Faith... Righteousness increases with maturity in the Faith by means of the PRAXIS of the Faith, for the increase of Grace is the increase of righteousness, and this is by means of the DOING of the Faith in the "running of the race set before us"...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

The object is to reconcile all these verses (and perhaps others) and explain what God is telling us about justification and how faith fits in.

Thats not the issue. With each verse, of course....the most important thing to do would be to go to each local context.

However, in summary, we can see from the verses that we are justified by faith, and not of works...remember...we are saved by grace through faith...

If you look at the verses that you have laid out, not one states that we are justified prior to faith.


So the object for you is to reconcile your belief/theology that one is justified prior to faith with scripture.

[RBerman]

The classic Reformation "justification by faith" would seem to imply that faith is logically and causally prior to justification, although in practice they may happen essentially simultaneously.

[Phat8594]

The classic Reformation "justification by faith" would seem to imply that faith is logically and causally prior to justification, although in practice they may happen essentially simultaneously.

Yep. Unfortunately many modern reformers do not know this and have taken up a position similar to RH's: that justification is prior to faith. This of course would mean that we can be justified apart from faith, which contradicts the clear communication of scripture.

So I thank you for your clarity and contribution RB. I have missed seeing you around here.

[RBerman]

Yep. Unfortunately many modern reformers do not know this and have taken up a position similar to RH's: that justification is prior to faith. This of course would mean that we can be justified apart from faith, which contradicts the clear communication of scripture.

So I thank you for your clarity and contribution RB. I have missed seeing you around here.

Thanks in return! Other obligations press.

[rhutchin]

The classic Reformation "justification by faith" would seem to imply that faith is logically and causally prior to justification, although in practice they may happen essentially simultaneously.

"seem to imply"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[George Blaisdell]

"seem to imply"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK - "Actually DOES imply..."

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

OK - "Actually DOES imply..."

Does imply!!!!!!! Actually, you are right. The reformers have written some confusing stuff on this.

[rhutchin]

In the Scriptures, we read,

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:24

"Therefore being justified by faith,.." Romans 5:1

"...being now justified by his blood,...For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,..." Romans 5:9-10

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:" Romans 8:30

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;... That being justified by his grace,... Titus 3:5-7

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24

The object is to reconcile all these verses (and perhaps others) and explain what God is telling us about justification and how faith fits in.

When we look at all the verses about justification, it is easy to get confused as the liberals so often do. Nonetheless, the Scriptures speak consistently when we consider all the information it gives to us.

Faith, simply expressed, is believing God. To believe God and thereby exhibit faith requires that there first be something to believe. God told Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation. Abraham believed what God said. By faith, Abraham left his home and followed God. Faith is man’s reaction to that which God has said. The person who says, I believe God, exercises faith. The person who says, I do not believe God, is devoid of faith.

God is sovereign. Because of that, it is God who tells man what He has done. Man does not tell God what to do.

Justification is an act of God. A person reacts to God’s justification by responding in faith. Justification is unique from regeneration and sanctification, as neither of those actions do anything about a person’s sin. God justifies and in doing so, addresses a person’s sin.

Justification is a forensic action whereby God imputes the righteousness of Christ to a person and thereby overcomes the person’s sin. It is illustrated by the example of a judge who convenes his court and before him stands a sinner. The sinner has no defense. He is guilty and subject to the full wrath of the judge. The judge, God, then declares the man righteous by virtue of Christ’s death on the cross. After being justified by God, the man responds in faith by saying, “I believe God, I believe that God has justified me.”

All sinners are not justified by God. Only those whom God has chosen, then called, are justified.

If faith precedes justification, then someone should be able to explain how the one leads to the other.

[RBerman]

Justification is an act of God. A person reacts to God’s justification by responding in faith. Justification is unique from regeneration and sanctification, as neither of those actions do anything about a person’s sin. God justifies and in doing so, addresses a person’s sin. Justification is a forensic action whereby God imputes the righteousness of Christ to a person and thereby overcomes the person’s sin. It is illustrated by the example of a judge who convenes his court and before him stands a sinner. The sinner has no defense. He is guilty and subject to the full wrath of the judge. The judge, God, then declares the man righteous by virtue of Christ’s death on the cross. After being justified by God, the man responds in faith by saying, “I believe God, I believe that God has justified me.”

Certainly one who has been justified can say by faith, "I believe God has justified me." That doesn't mean justification logically precedes faith, though. It means that awareness precedes confession.

If faith precedes justification, then someone should be able to explain how the one leads to the other.

By faith we are united to Christ. As a result, Christ's alien righteousness is imputed to us, and our sin is imputed to Christ and satisfied in his death and resurrection. We are righteous (that is, we are justified) because we are in Christ, and we are in Christ by faith.

[Phat8594]

By faith we are united to Christ. As a result, Christ's alien righteousness is imputed to us, and our sin is imputed to Christ and satisfied in his death and resurrection. We are righteous (that is, we are justified) because we are in Christ, and we are in Christ by faith.

Absolutely! This is why Paul says:

For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

[Phat8594]

God is sovereign. Because of that, it is God who tells man what He has done. Man does not tell God what to do.

Agreed!

Justification is a forensic action whereby God imputes the righteousness of Christ to a person and thereby overcomes the person’s sin. It is illustrated by the example of a judge who convenes his court and before him stands a sinner. The sinner has no defense. He is guilty and subject to the full wrath of the judge. The judge, God, then declares the man righteous by virtue of Christ’s death on the cross. After being justified by God, the man responds in faith by saying, “I believe God, I believe that God has justified me.”

Certaintly the man who says such a thing is doing so by faith. However, what does Paul say about justification, grace, and faith?

For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

So we see that we are justified by God's grace through Christ Jesus: the propitation of Christ is received by faith. Therefore justification cannot precede faith. If justification precedes faith, then you are in essence saying that we can be justified apart from the propitiation by Christ's blood.



and:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 [B]Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we[c] rejoice[d] in hope of the glory of God.

See Paul makes it clear that faith is the means that God uses (by His sovereignty) that God bestows his saving grace. Without faith, no one can be justified. Because without faith, Christ's propitiation can not be received.

[Phat8594]

If faith precedes justification, then someone should be able to explain how the one leads to the other.

Just to be clear:

Although faith precedes justification, it by no means is the cause of our justification. God alone is the cause of our justification and salvation as a whole.