For RH: The order of Justification and Faith

[RBerman]

Just to be clear:

Although faith precedes justification, it by no means is the cause of our justification. God alone is the cause of our justification and salvation as a whole.

Philosophers have identified several different sorts of cause. When we say that justification is "by faith," we would say that faith is the instrumental cause of justification. but Christ's person and work are the effectual cause of salvation.

[hedrick]

I think Paul uses justification, even in Romans, in slightly different ways. He seems to say that Abraham is justified by his faith. In this sense I believe justification means, as N T Wright says, being shown to be in good standing with God. But I think other places in Romans Paul uses justification to mean made right with God, and sees this as something God does, to which we respond in faith.

Underlying this is the question of the correct ordo salutis. The problem I have with this is that people are complicated, and God works differently with different people. I am not convinced that our salvation proceeds neatly in discrete steps according to the nice diagrams in theology textbooks. Clearly justification and faith are closely connected. I'm not so sure that we can state categorically that they always occur as separate events in a certain order.

[rhutchin]

Justification is an act of God. A person reacts to God’s justification by responding in faith. Justification is unique from regeneration and sanctification, as neither of those actions do anything about a person’s sin. God justifies and in doing so, addresses a person’s sin.

Certainly one who has been justified can say by faith, "I believe God has justified me." That doesn't mean justification logically precedes faith, though. It means that awareness precedes confession.

If , and until, God has declared the sinner justified, then there is nothing to which faith can respond. Is there? Absent God’s declaration to the sinner that he is justified, what is out there of which the sinner might become aware?

If awareness precedes confession, then of what has the person become aware? If not the awareness of God’s declaration of justification, then what do you have in mind?

If faith precedes justification, then someone should be able to explain how the one leads to the other.

By faith we are united to Christ. As a result, Christ's alien righteousness is imputed to us, and our sin is imputed to Christ and satisfied in his death and resurrection.

Do you have this order in what you say above. First, our sin is imputed to Christ for which He goes to the cross. Next, God regenerates the sinner and simultaneously (I think) declares him justified – Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the sinner. Because of this, the justified sinner declares his faith/belief in that which God has done and this action initiates the process of sanctification.

We are righteous (that is, we are justified) because we are in Christ, and we are in Christ by faith.

OK. Those who are “in Christ” have been justified by God. In response to being justified by God, the now justified sinner confesses that he is “in Christ” – he expresses belief. Did you have a different sequence in mind?

[rhutchin]

Absolutely! This is why Paul says:

Scripture Verse:

For there is no distinction:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

v23 - All are dirty rotten sinners.
v24 - God justifies the sinner and the basis for this justification is the redemption that is in Christ.
v25 - Whom God hung on a cross to be received by faith. As the unregenerate receive nothing by faith for they have no faith, faith must follow regeneration. Regeneration, by itself, does not save as it does not address sin. When Paul says, "By grace you are saved," he means that God both regenerates and deals with the person's sin by grace. When Paul then later adds, by faith, we understand that this is also given to the regenerate/justified by grace and enables that new person to respond to that which God has done in regenerating/justifying him.

[rhutchin]

I think Paul uses justification, even in Romans, in slightly different ways. He seems to say that Abraham is justified by his faith. In this sense I believe justification means, as N T Wright says, being shown to be in good standing with God. But I think other places in Romans Paul uses justification to mean made right with God, and sees this as something God does, to which we respond in faith.

OK. That sounds right. That Abraham believes God, tells us that God has done something that Abraham then responds to by believing. That response of belief in what God has done is then credited to him as righteousness which may point to his being in good standing with God - to be in good standing means to believe God.

Otherwise, there is the need for God to deal with the sin of the sinner and this elicits a response of belief also.

Underlying this is the question of the correct ordo salutis. The problem I have with this is that people are complicated, and God works differently with different people. I am not convinced that our salvation proceeds neatly in discrete steps according to the nice diagrams in theology textbooks. Clearly justification and faith are closely connected. I'm not so sure that we can state categorically that they always occur as separate events in a certain order.

I think we can say that faith is a response to something God has done for unless God does something, why would a person respond in any manner at all?

[rhutchin]

Philosophers have identified several different sorts of cause. When we say that justification is "by faith," we would say that faith is the instrumental cause of justification. but Christ's person and work are the effectual cause of salvation.

I am not so sure that we can say that "faith is the instrumental cause of justification" or that faith is any "cause" of justification. The necessity for justification is generated by God's decision to save sinners. That which makes it possible for God to justify a sinner is Christ's death on the cross. I see no reason for justification to be further conditioned on faith as a cause. Justification may be conditioned on faith as a response for without a response of faith, justification would be denied and this in turn would deny God's original decision to save in the first place and this is impossible.

[RBerman]

I am not so sure that we can say that "faith is the instrumental cause of justification" or that faith is any "cause" of justification. The necessity for justification is generated by God's decision to save sinners. That which makes it possible for God to justify a sinner is Christ's death on the cross. I see no reason for justification to be further conditioned on faith as a cause. Justification may be conditioned on faith as a response for without a response of faith, justification would be denied and this in turn would deny God's original decision to save in the first place and this is impossible.

I recommend you read more about what an "instrumental cause" is. It's related to your observation that "justification may be conditioned on faith."

If , and until, God has declared the sinner justified, then there is nothing to which faith can respond. Is there? Absent God’s declaration to the sinner that he is justified, what is out there of which the sinner might become aware?

Aware of the effrontery of sin. Aware of Christ's propitiating death and empowering resurrection. Aware of the gospel.

[footwasher]

Anythng to be tweaked in this comprehension aid:

One way to get a clearer picture is to use an existing frame of reference, the Mosaic Covenant.

Israel is required to obey God's Commandments and to be found to be in compliance, kosher, clean, justified, shown by their acceptance into the community/camp where they maintain that status on a day to day basis (because circumstances change?). There they live the meaningful life, eternal life, as opposed to the other nations, who live an ephemeral life, without permanence, without significance.

In return, God blesses Israel with material benefits. Other nations see and acknowledge God is with them, and He is the true God, and they in turn can enter covenant and be justified, be right with Him.

Progression from partially compliant to non compliant state 1
The first step into the covenant status of justified is circumcision as a child. The benefit is that infant grows up and comes into contact with familiar requirements to fall into compliance, within a support group. It may happen that he decides that the Jewish worldview is not for him and opts to bail out. He then is out of the covenant. He now has no share in the rewards of those who stay in covenant. He has no hope of fulfilling the purpose for which he was created. He experiences the wrath of God, natural justice, absence of protection of the camp

Progression from partially compliant to non compliant state 2
Covenant member cherry picks the requirements of Law and follows them. Jesus calls this neglecting the weightier requirements of the Law. According to his trimmed list, he is righteous, without blame. In reality, he is unclean, not justiifed, his claimed righteousness as dung. Wrath is impending.

The only possible compliant state
The Law is a curse, it cannot be complied with in full without the help of God, and the covenant member soon realises this and comes forward and asks for mercy and help. God acknowledges his confession and keeps him in safe custody until God sends a Deliverer (the Law makes a prisoner of those who humble themselves before God). This person is clean, justified (eg. Publican in the Temple).

The prodigal decides the Jewish worldview is not his view and bails out. He squanders hi
intellect in Broadway and Wall Street (taxcollectors and harlots). He finds that the secular world view is impoverished. The home he left is scanty in terms of spiritual food because of the neutral, playing safe attitude towards Torah of his brother (Temple leaders) but it is rich pickings in comparision to the superficial ways of the world. He runs back, to find that his Father has missed him (when Jonah felt indignant at the loss of a tree that he had not created, had no involvement with, imagine the emotion of the Father at the absence of a child, with whom he has bonded, grown to know and love).

The elder brother demands fair treatment because of his obedience, compliance (not!) and the Father promises him the endowment of all his property not because of his compliance but BECAUSE OF HIS FAITHFULNESS/ integrity/righteousness (its a statutory requirment, or has God's word failed?!If the inclusion of the Gentiles , wild olive branch, meant the energising of the living, will not the reinstatement of the natural olive branch mean the energising of the dead?! Israel is the apple of God's eye...)


All the above to explain belief, having confidence, acting, results, compliance, blessings, wrath.

When Christ came and fulfilled all of the Law, all the covenant blessings came to Him.

Its a different Temple which has been resurrected, the Body of Christ into which we are placed, have sanctuary and protection and empowerment.

Progression from compliant to non-compliant state 1
Baptism is the first act of compliance: your parents do it for you. You grow up in the camp, but you have to decide if it is your worldview. If you chose to bail out, you lose nurturing material, support and the opportunity to be part of God's family and work. You face wrath: empty life, meaningless existence, guilt, reconciliation to the thought of deserving of punishment for your faults.

Progression from partially compliant to non-compliant state 2
You have seen God is with the local church. You take baptism. You find the worldview radically at odds with your existing view. You try to import your view and interaction into the camp (Ananias? Simon the Sorcerer) You lose nurture, teaching, support, protection, privileges. You face wrath.

Progression from partially compliant to fully compliant.
Baptism is the first act of compliance: your parents do it for you. You grow up in the camp, but you have to decide if it is your worldview.

God reveals. You learn enough to understand . You choose God. God gives you to Jesus.
You believe (agreeing faith ). You believe Jesus is the way God has kept his promise to Abraham.
You receive the Spirit.
The Spirit gives confidence in God (faith in God)
You exercise confidence to obey God's commands. You succeed (bear fruit, works).
You receive the blessings of Deuteronomy.
The world sees.
The world believes. The world follows in your footsteps.
The world is blessed.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Progression from partially compliant to fully compliant.

Compliance is not the goal...
Because if it were, then
Compliance would make the Law, if one somehow manages full compliance with it, able to impart justification...

Obedience to Christ's commandments is a means to an end, and a sign of love for Christ, but the goal is union with Christ, not compliance with His commandments... The first is solely by god's Grace, the second is by human will [supported by God's Grace]... God's economy for man's salvation requires the second in order that the first be given...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Arsenios wrote

Compliance is not the goal...

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5

Because if it were, then
Compliance would make the Law, if one somehow manages full compliance with it, able to impart justification...

14I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."Luke 18

Obedience to Christ's commandments is a means to an end, and a sign of love for Christ, but the goal is union with Christ, not compliance with His commandments...

4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.John 15 (IOW, union first and then ability to comply...)

The first is solely by god's Grace, the second is by human will [supported by God's Grace]...

33Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Gal 3

God's economy for man's salvation requires the second in order that the first be given...

Depends on whether faith (belief) is a work and "synergy" is understood etymologically or co-opted...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Arsenios wrote
Compliance is not the goal...

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5

So you think perfecting = ever greater compliance [with the Law]???

Because if it were, then
Compliance would make the Law, if one somehow manages full compliance with it, able to impart justification...

14I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."Luke 18

So that the Pharisee was less compliant with the Law than the publican?

Obedience to Christ's commandments is a means to an end, and a sign of love for Christ, but the goal is union with Christ, not compliance with His commandments...

4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.John 15 (IOW, union first and then ability to comply...)

The union comes at Baptism, and by living repentant lives in Christ we abide in that union, SO THAT we bear fruit... We will not bear fruit if we do not abide in the Vine...

The first is solely by god's Grace, the second is by human will [supported by God's Grace]...

33Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Gal 3

He means here the cutting of the foreskin of the male genitalia...

God's economy for man's salvation requires the second in order that the first be given...

Depends on whether faith (belief) is a work and "synergy" is understood etymologically or co-opted...

Synergy is understood in the praxis of the Faith, and that praxis, which is what comprises the Faith, is a work... Without the works, there is no living Faith... We know what happens synergistically when we undertake a repentance...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Brother, this is what I meant about ths semantic range of language being a problem. I'd rather provide a view that best fits the data.

What is baptism?

In a nutshell, baptism is God's response to a thoughtful mind, as opposed to a thoughtless mind, minds that respond to events reflexively, in knee jerk fashion, often selfishly.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

This is the pondering mind, that draws rational conclusions about existence of the Creat-or when it is presented with the prsence of creat-ion, which muses about the implications of this Creator being malignant, being benign, stuff like that.

What happens when a person believes? God rewards him with resources: an ID, access to the library and tutors and counselors and other sundry goodies found on a normal campus.

What happens to a person who is born on campus? He has it handed to him on a plate.

But it's an open campus, and there are pushers and blackmarketers and seditionists, and our friend may opt to transact with the aliens. In such cases, circumcision becomes uncircumcision, infant baptism becomes invalid baptism.

What if the campus is subpar? Then God manifests the baptism endeavour in other ways. Maybe he lands up on this forum, because Brother George made him do it! He may even subsequently do some turning around of the alma mater

What if the infant is undecided? Well the church can convert that undecided vote into a firm one.

Baptizo is the pickling process (the lexicon lists the word found in a pickling recipe from a 1st century parchment): what happens when the vinegar and the olive meld such that you don't know where the one begins and the other ends. The success of the product involves the two ingredients being authentic (none of that genetically modified stuff), and the process of sufficient duration for the job to get done (as directed in the recipe).

[rhutchin]

I recommend you read more about what an "instrumental cause" is. It's related to your observation that "justification may be conditioned on faith."

Not sure what you mean here. I said, "Justification may be conditioned on faith as a response." If I understand instrumental cause, it refers to the secondary agent of the principal cause and is used to bring about the desired end. I don't see faith as necessary to bring about justification but merely verifies that justification has been given. Faith responds to justification (thus, follows justification) but is not instrumental in bringing it about.

Aware of the effrontery of sin. Aware of Christ's propitiating death and empowering resurrection. Aware of the gospel.

OK. One might make an argument along those lines. But can it be done? Is it possible to get a person to respond in faith to the things you mention (or other things) and thereby obligate God to justify the person? I'm open to an argument of that nature if it can be made.

[RBerman]

Not sure what you mean here. I said, "Justification may be conditioned on faith as a response." If I understand instrumental cause, it refers to the secondary agent of the principal cause and is used to bring about the desired end. I don't see faith as necessary to bring about justification but merely verifies that justification has been given. Faith responds to justification (thus, follows justification) but is not instrumental in bringing it about.

Perhaps you can tell me what you think Ephesians 2:8,9 means in describing salvation as "by grace, through faith." What does "through" indicate there if not instrumentality?

OK. One might make an argument along those lines. But can it be done? Is it possible to get a person to respond in faith to the things you mention (or other things) and thereby obligate God to justify the person? I'm open to an argument of that nature if it can be made.

We don't obligate God. God has obligated himself (if that verb can be used in such a reflexive sense) such that he does not begin the good work in anyone without being faithful to complete it. (Phil 1:6) He elects individuals to have faith in Christ precisely so that they will be justified through the union with Christ that happens through faith.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Brother, this is what I meant about ths semantic range of language being a problem. I'd rather provide a view that best fits the data.

What is baptism?

In a nutshell, baptism is God's response to a thoughtful mind, as opposed to a thoughtless mind, minds that respond to events reflexively, in knee jerk fashion, often selfishly.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

This is the pondering mind, that draws rational conclusions about existence of the Creat-or when it is presented with the prsence of creat-ion, which muses about the implications of this Creator being malignant, being benign, stuff like that.

What happens when a person believes? God rewards him with resources: an ID, access to the library and tutors and counselors and other sundry goodies found on a normal campus.

What happens to a person who is born on campus? He has it handed to him on a plate.

But it's an open campus, and there are pushers and blackmarketers and seditionists, and our friend may opt to transact with the aliens. In such cases, circumcision becomes uncircumcision, infant baptism becomes invalid baptism.

What if the campus is subpar? Then God manifests the baptism endeavour in other ways. Maybe he lands up on this forum, because Brother George made him do it! He may even subsequently do some turning around of the alma mater

What if the infant is undecided? Well the church can convert that undecided vote into a firm one.

Baptizo is the pickling process (the lexicon lists the word found in a pickling recipe from a 1st century parchment): what happens when the vinegar and the olive meld such that you don't know where the one begins and the other ends. The success of the product involves the two ingredients being authentic (none of that genetically modified stuff), and the process of sufficient duration for the job to get done (as directed in the recipe).

The Faith of Christ, given by Him once, for all, to the Saints, is very specific in its operations, despite its great and unfathomable depths of Mystery... What you are describing are various possibilities of "ekonomia" which God may or may not employ in bringing any particular person to repentance [eg to the praxis of the Faith]...

You are right in that there are two meanings of faith in operation here [eg your 'semantic range' consternation], for one is a subjective sense of believing something, and the other is the particular Faith given to us once for all by Christ through His Holy Ones, the Saints... This Faith is very specific regarding Baptism, which basically means temporary submersion - The root, BAPT- means DIP, and the transliteration is DIP-IZING... Christ Himself was baptized by John the Baptist "that all righteousness be fulfilled"... And He charged His Apostles to "GO to all the Ethnoi [nations] and disciple them, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded you" [to be doing]...

And what you find, historically, in ALL the Apostolic Churches of Christ, is the same practice of the Faith, the same services, the same structures and the same altars and the same results in miracles and wonders and healings and on and on, and the same peacefulness and love of those being so discipled, throughout Christendom, and the same sufferings and persecutions... So for you to say "baptism schmabtism" and send swirlings of confusionism into the blowing of the mix is not exactly disingenuous... [Say THAT sentence 10Xreallyfast!]

And ALL these Churches throughout the world demonstrated great resistance to ANY change of ANY thing, and especially doctrines... Not at all like YOU wanting to swirl through ever new changes changing changingnesses...

Baptism is ENTRY into Christ via ENTRY into His Death on the Cross...

It is not God's response to a pensive and ruminative, [eg cud-chewing] mind,
but to a REPENTANT one...
To one that seeks Him...

It is Christ's acceptance of such a person in repentance into His Body, the Church...

And that acceptance is conditional upon the person's continuing repentance from sin...

Arsenios