Is faith a work?

[Jedidiah]

God gave me the gift of faith well before I was baptized.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I would find it difficult to hold a view that the events were normative

Well, being struck blind by Christ and then healed by Ananias is not normative at all...
But the giving of the Holy Spirit in Baptism is STILL normative...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

God gave me the gift of faith well before I was baptized.

Me too...
But I received The Faith at Baptism...

The first was a part of being called to the Faith and is subjective [eg a very personal experience]
The second is entry into Christ, even his death on the Cross, and is objective, done TO you...

The calling of Christ is a holy event, often overwhelming...
Entry into Christ is its goal, so you get there...

If I am seeing things aright, the calling is often misunderstood as salvation...
And that misunderstanding is utterly understandable...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Me too...
But I received The Faith at Baptism...

The first was a part of being called to the Faith and is subjective [eg a very personal experience]
The second is entry into Christ, even his death on the Cross, and is objective, done TO you...

The calling of Christ is a holy event, often overwhelming...
Entry into Christ is its goal, so you get there...

If I am seeing things aright, the calling is often misunderstood as salvation...
And that misunderstanding is utterly understandable...

Arsenios

Seems to contradict this (from your website):

An Overview of Orthodoxy By Way of a Reply to Daniel Clendenin
[St. John 6:44] With infant baptism, chronologically, grace comes first and faith, years later.

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/clendenin_response.aspx

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Seems to contradict this (from your website):

An Overview of Orthodoxy By Way of a Reply to Daniel Clendenin
[St. John 6:44] With infant baptism, chronologically, grace comes first and faith, years later.

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/clendenin_response.aspx

Infants get a better deal than us adult types! They are grafted into the True Vine at 40 days of age, in purity of heart, where mom and dad take responsibility for their upbringing... eg repentance...

But I would not say that a child lacks faith... It is but differently crafted, and not yet optional in its practice...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

See other thread!

[ThePuppyTurtle]

If it's something you do it is a work, and the Bible never says we are saved by faith ALONE. The only tome those words are together the doctrine is condemned in James 2 (And here comes the hoard of sola fideists to tell me what it "Means").

[RBerman]

If it's something you do it is a work, and the Bible never says we are saved by faith ALONE. The only time those words are together the doctrine is condemned in James 2 (And here comes the hoard of sola fideists to tell me what it "Means").

Hey, you're telling us what you think James 2 "Means." Since you're good at that, what do these passages mean:

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:21-26

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:1-6

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

Galatians 2:15-16

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Paul is distressingly consistent: For what he means by "justified," we are justified by faith, and not works.

[ThePuppyTurtle]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this (the faith) is not your own doing; it (the faith) is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.| Also the words "Faith alone" are not here.

Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.| I don't believe that we are saved by works OF THE LAW (of Moses) and mere mention of faith is not sufficient. I do believe faith is involved in Justification

Galatians 2:15-16
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.| Again, not works OF THE LAW, just works.

Gonna get back to you on Romans 4

[RBerman]

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this (the faith) is not your own doing; it (the faith) is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

© source where applicable

Also the words "Faith alone" are not here.

Certainly the words "faith alone" are not here. But do you see how Paul is contrasting faith (the thing through which we are saved) with works (the thing through which we are not saved)? That's the intended meaning of the summary statement "faith alone." The word "trinity" is not in the Bible either, but it summarizes a teaching which is in the Bible.

Romans 3:21-26

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

© source where applicable

I don't believe that we are saved by works OF THE LAW (of Moses) and mere mention of faith is not sufficient. I do believe faith is involved in Justification.

Galatians 2:15-16

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

© source where applicable

Again, not works OF THE LAW, just works.

What works do you think do save us that would not somehow fall under the Law of Moses? After all, the Mortal Sins of the RCC are also part of the Law of Moses. The Two Great Commandments (love God, love men) are also part of the Law of Moses. What work can you do that isn't an expression of one or the other or both of that part of the Mosaic Law?

Gonna get back to you on Romans 4

OK; no hurry.

[ThePuppyTurtle]

Certainly the words "faith alone" are not here. But do you see how Paul is contrasting faith (the thing through which we are saved) with works (the thing through which we are not saved)? That's the intended meaning of the summary statement "faith alone." The word "trinity" is not in the Bible either, but it summarizes a teaching which is in the Bible.

Do you believe a totally unrepentant person who gives propositional assent to Christianity will be saved? And you didn't respond to my counterargument. Namely that the faith not the salvation is not by works.

What works do you think do save us that would not somehow fall under the Law of Moses? After all, the Mortal Sins of the RCC are also part of the Law of Moses. The Two Great Commandments (love God, love men) are also part of the Law of Moses. What work can you do that isn't an expression of one or the other or both of that part of the Mosaic Law?

There's not a word about contraception in the law of Moses yet Catholics consider it moral sin. And Galatians was addressing the circumcisionist heresy that was saying you must follow the ENTIRE law including the dietary laws else you are not saved. That's what was being rebuked. The fact that it is a good work under 2 systems doesn't mean we are being saved by one system and no the other.

OK; no hurry.

Firstly remember the commentary on him in James 2. Also I think this bit hints us at the correct interpretation:

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation

Of course God is in no way obligated to save us by our works, nor do we earn salvation. God could with equal justice strike every man down the moment he first mortally sins and send them to damnation.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

What works do you think do save us that would not somehow fall under the Law of Moses? After all, the Mortal Sins of the RCC are also part of the Law of Moses. The Two Great Commandments (love God, love men) are also part of the Law of Moses. What work can you do that isn't an expression of one or the other or both of that part of the Mosaic Law?

Only the Jews under the Law of Moses were saved by Faith in Christ - The rest of us poor slobs are saved THROUGH the Faith, and that means through the PRAXIS of the Faith, and that means the WORK of the Faith... So does this mean, if true, that works save us? Absolutely not! This needs to be said clearly, for on the one hand we are not saved without works, and on the other hand, we are not saved BY works, but only THROUGH the works of the Faith...

So how can this be?

And the answer is pretty simple, once you get past the notion that works in any way earn or contribute anything to one's salvation... For the experience of the Church for 2000 years from the very beginnings has been that justification and salvation are a free gift of God's Grace that cannot be earned at all, and yet is not given outside the works of the Faith, and especially repentance... So WHAT in the world CAN explain how this is?

And the answer is that it is the EKONOMIA of our Salvation given us by Christ-God... It is His requirement, in order that He give to us the Gift of salvation, that we live repentant lives... It is the committing, the deliberate doing, of sin that will take us OUT OF the Salvation He gives us by His Grace, and it is by our confession of that sin in His Body, the Church, and our repentance from it, that we will regain what we once had and then lost... This is how serious sin is to the Christian... We can be tricked, we can be jerked around, tempted, and in all other manner of assaults be assailed by sins, but as long as we do not consent to and then commit sin, we will stay in the union with Christ that IS Salvation... IOW, If we struggle against sin all our lives, working out our salvaiton until the end in fear and trembling, and whenever we DO sin, we confess our sin and get right back up and keep on repenting, we will retain the Gift... And if not, then not...

But the Faith consists in the works of repentance first - It is the very FIRST word of the Good-News Gospel of Jesus Christ:

"REPENT and be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Arsenios

[footwasher]

only the jews under the law of moses were saved by faith in christ - the rest of us poor slobs are saved through the faith, and that means through the praxis of the faith, and that means the work of the faith... So does this mean, if true, that works save us? Absolutely not! This needs to be said clearly, for on the one hand we are not saved without works, and on the other hand, we are not saved by works, but only through the works of the faith...

So how can this be?

And the answer is pretty simple, once you get past the notion that works in any way earn or contribute anything to one's salvation... For the experience of the church for 2000 years from the very beginnings has been that justification and salvation are a free gift of god's grace that cannot be earned at all, and yet is not given outside the works of the faith, and especially repentance... So what in the world can explain how this is?

And the answer is that it is the ekonomia of our salvation given us by christ-god... It is his requirement, in order that he give to us the gift of salvation, that we live repentant lives... It is the committing, the deliberate doing, of sin that will take us out of the salvation he gives us by his grace, and it is by our confession of that sin in his body, the church, and our repentance from it, that we will regain what we once had and then lost... This is how serious sin is to the christian... We can be tricked, can be jerked around, tempted, and in all other manner of assaults be assailed by sins, but as long as we do not consent to and then commit sin, we will stay in the union with christ that is salvation... Iow, if we struggle against sin all our lives, working out our salvaiton until the end in fear and trembling, and whenever we do sin, we confess our sin and get right back up and keep on repenting, we will retain the gift... And if not, then not...
But the faith consists in the works of repentance first - it is the very first word of the good-news gospel of jesus christ:

"repent and be baptized, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

arsenios

that reduces the blessings of deuteronomy 29 to a nullity. The point is that while the righteous jews until john could not fulfil the requirements, they were under a curse. Did they go to hell , no. They were held in safe custody by the law, paidagos.

After the Holy Spirit was given, the means of fulfilment of the promise to abraham, believers both jew and gentile were made alive, and, NOW, could fulfil the requirements.





Note the requirements ,it's a distilation of the 613 precepts, iow, love god, love your fellow human being.what the pharisees did was remove the meat of the law. They needed to metanoia:see the sermon on the mount, john's insistence on fruit consistent with repentance, brother with two cloaks sharing the cloaks?

[RBerman]

Do you believe a totally unrepentant person who gives propositional assent to Christianity will be saved? And you didn't respond to my counterargument. Namely that the faith not the salvation is not by works.

Of course not. Faith is more than propositional, intellectual assent. It includes a trusting disposition with respect to Christ, which entails repentance toward atittudes that Christ condemns. As to your "counterargument," what in the world would "faith is not by works" mean? Who would have thought that one gained faith by works? The whole passage is about God's gracious gift of salvation, not God's gracious gift of faith. Read the whole thing together and perhaps that will become more obvious.

Ephesians 2:4-9

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I've also heard that the Greek grammar proves that in "this is not of yourselves", the "this" cannot refer to faith. But I'm not enough of a Greek scholar to confirm that myself.

There's not a word about contraception in the law of Moses yet Catholics consider it moral sin. And Galatians was addressing the circumcisionist heresy that was saying you must follow the ENTIRE law including the dietary laws else you are not saved. That's what was being rebuked. The fact that it is a good work under 2 systems doesn't mean we are being saved by one system and no the other.

Are you aware that the RCC Catechism prohibits contraception as part of its exposition of the commandment given to Moses concerning marital relations? (RCC 2370). The fact remains that Paul has only harsh words for those who seek their justification (as he uses that word) before God in works.

Firstly remember the commentary on him in James 2. Also I think this bit hints us at the correct interpretation: Of course God is in no way obligated to save us by our works, nor do we earn salvation. God could with equal justice strike every man down the moment he first mortally sins and send them to damnation.

James is a different book, and a different human author, addressing a different problem than Paul. He does use the term "justification" with respect to those who claim to have faith. He doesn't assume that they actually have valid faith; he says they have to justify their claim to faith through their works. That's different than justifying our selves before God based on our works. God doesn't need to look at our works to figure out whether our faith is sincere. He knows our hearts directly. Works serve as evidence to ourselves and other men.

[footwasher]

The grammar would strongly support the phrase " salvation by grace" being the antecedent, as phrases are neuter gender, but the point is that Paul is not discussing God's effort or man's effort, but that God is the giver and man the recipient (giv-ee?) as Tercel post suggests.