Is faith a work?

[RBerman]

DIng Ding Ding, we've got works here it seems. After all how could repentance not be a work except by your choosing to commit a special pleading fallacy?

Repentance (an attitude which demonstrates the presence of true faith) entails works. I've never said faith occurs without works. I've said (and shown Scripture to back it up) that faith is the means of our justification, whereas works are not. So sure, of course "we've got works here." Just not as a grounds of our justification.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...an-work-it-out "Context reveals that St. Paul was talking about the initial grace of salvation or justification by which we are raised from death unto life. The construction of the Greek text of Ephesians 2:8-9 makes clear that both grace and faith are entirely unmerited. Many Protestants are shocked to discover this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches" And I agree with that view.

Well, "grace" is unmerited by definition, so you're certainly right there. And as a Calvinist, I heartily support the concept that we did nothing to merit God's gift of faith into our hearts. But you're skipping the elephant in the room by not mentioning that being "saved" too is a "gift of God, not of works" according to Ephesians 2:8,9.

Both the RCC and the law of Moses teach the same thing, but this does not mean the RCC teaches it BECAUSE of that. And it seems that works of the law would refer to the ENTIRE law including the dietary laws and circumcision.

So you're saying that even though the RCC Catechism includes its teaching on contraception in the section about the Ten Commandments, that's not because the teaching on contraception derives from the Ten Commandments? I don't think you're that foolish. Stubborn, perhaps, but not foolish.

But that's not what it says, it says that faith without works is dead like the Body without a soul is dead. A body without a soul is identical in every way to a body with a soul, but without the life. Likewise the only difference between faith without works and faith with works is the life. Does dead faith save?

Of course dead faith does not save. James then presents a diagnostic test by which men can figure out whether they have dead faith or living faith: The test of works. Works justify your claim to faith. That's why James talks about a man who says he has faith. God doesn't have to rely on what we say or what we do; God can see our hearts.

You were going to get back to me on Romans 4 sometime?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Repentance (an attitude which demonstrates the presence of true faith) entails works. I've never said faith occurs without works. I've said (and shown Scripture to back it up) that faith is the means of our justification, whereas works are not. So sure, of course "we've got works here." Just not as a grounds of our justification.

Repentance is an ATTITUDE??? Show me THAT in Holy Writ!

But it is good that you are understanding that repentance IS a work,
and that without the works of repentance, there is NO repentance...
There may be some hope yet here.... :-)

And THEN you go on to say that without works there is NO FAITH???
YOU are the MAN!!!
Faith is, by that standard, a work, no question...
If there is no such thing as faith without works, then faith is a work...

And when you say that faith is the MEANS of our justification,
you are thereby saying that justification is through works,
because there is no faith without works...

You be gittin' more and more Orthodox with every sentence!

But when you say this, you have to say that it is the means
prescribed by God for man
in order that man be justified by God,
and this not because man thereby EARNS his Justification and is OWED it by God,
but instead it is God's prescription FOR man in order that God should GIVE him justification...
Justification is by Faith, you see, through the works of the Faith,
WORKS that SEEK [but do not obligate in the slightest] God's Mercy...

The WHOLE of it is expressed in the Gospels as the Kingdom of Heaven,
which is what Jesus is preaching in parables...

And from the days of John the Baptist until now *
the kingdom of heaven is forced,
and the forceful are siezing it by force. *

The Greek term for "siezing by force" is the same root we have for HARPOON [ eg HARPAZO]...
[But it is perhaps a tad much to say that the forceful are harpooning the kingdom of Heaven... :-)]

So you see, the Kingdom of Heaven is TAKEN by FORCE...
But ONLY from the time of John the Baptist until NOW...
That now is until the end of the age...

Yet clearly, it suffers violence, and men are siezing it by violence for themselves...
And that is on the one hand...
On the other,
there is absolutely NO violence that can sieze the Kingdom of Heaven,
which is the Gift of God in Salvation...
You see, BOTH these self-contradicrting statements are true...
The WAY INTO the Kingdom of Heaven is by FORCE,
for narrow and hard and constricted*is the WAY that LEADS TO salvation,
and few are they who find it...
And in THEIR terms, it is SIEZED in these harsh labors...
Yet this only because God graciously GIVES the GIFT of salvation
to those who find the hard and narrow Way...

And as a Calvinist, I heartily support the concept that we did nothing to merit God's gift of faith into our hearts.

*

Well IF, as YOU say, the GIFT of the Faith is implanted INTO OUR HEARTS by God,
THEN you are defining faith as nothing more than
your own personal subjective feeling in your own heart...
And not the Faith, given once, for all, to the Apostles,
and through them, to us...

Of course dead faith does not save. James then presents a diagnostic test by which men can figure out whether they have dead faith or living faith: The test of works. Works justify your claim to faith. That's why James talks about a man who says he has faith. God doesn't have to rely on what we say or what we do; God can see our hearts.

This confirms the subjective, personal, and anecdotal nature
of your understanding of the Faith given once, for all, to the Apostles...
James is clearly telling all who can read that works make mature the Faith within a person,
and that without works, one's personal beliefs about the Truth are dead in the water...
The demons KNOW the truth, and are lost...
We need to DO the works of Faith in order to MATURE in the Faith...
THAT is the clear message of James,
THAT and the fact that without the works of the Faith,
our personal so-called beliefs are DEAD...

You simply cannot KNOW what is RIGHT
and then DO what is WRONG
and then CLAIM some imaginary IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS,
because this IS the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy,
and elevates hypocrisy into doctrine...

I mean, it is true that God KNOWS your heart, but do you???

Arsenios

[RonC]

Dearest George,

We miss the point with regard to faith. Faith is not a work… faith is no more a work than breathing. Changing our hearts and minds (repentance) is a work. Faith manifests as works… Jesus taught that so clearly… “as you believe… ”according to your faith…” things are done… “all I do and more…” “all is possible…” to one who has faith/believes… on the flip side “a good tree brings forth good fruit…” “you know the tree by the fruit…”

Everyone believes… has faith in something. Whatever we believe will manifest… We cannot stop this just as we cannot stop the sun from rising… it is a basic metaphysical truth taught by both Moses and Jesus. We choose based on what we believe, we perceive through the lens of what we believe, we raise our children in accordance with what we believe… our choices and actions are a manifestation of what we believe (know the tree by the fruit)… That is why Jesus' first teaching focuses on our minds... our beliefs... our understandings... he tells us we must change them!

Best,
RonC

[RBerman]

Repentance is an ATTITUDE??? Show me THAT in Holy Writ!

You're the Greek scholar, George. What does metanoia mean? Amazing how you get a forty line rant out of one line I posted, and don't even address the central issue.

[RonC]

RB,

If I might... metanoeo means " to change one's thinking". In the imperative (as Jesus used it in the first teaching of his public ministry) it renders as the listener being exhorted to do something... "Change your mind!" would be a valid rendering of the Greek... in fact "Change your attitude" is an arguable one... it is a directive to act -- to do something. metanoia (a change of mind) is the result of the action of changing one's mind..

Best,
RonC

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Metanoia...

RB - What does metanoia mean?

Ron -
Metanoeo means " to change one's thinking"... it is a directive to act -- to do something.
Metanoia (a change of mind) is the result of the action of changing one's mind..

Well, the idea that the result of the action of changing one's mind is a change of mind is a tad on the circular side...

So let's take an example: I know this guy who hates drinking, and he gets drunk every day... Every morning he will preach to you the evils of that old demon alcohol and every night he is in his cups... And he hears about Christianity! So let's say you want to come to him in the morning, and preach the gospel of repentance to him, and he launches his usual rant against the alcohol demon... Do you agree or disagree with him? He certainly doesn't need to change his mind... He HATES alcohol... He doesn't need to change his attitude... He HATES alcohol... Does he HAVE repentance yet??? His MIND is certainly repentant... Why, just this morning, he was weeping over the fact that his wife left him, and he got into a fight a beat up a young man in the bar and broke his knuckle in the fight, and how sick he was feeling with his regular AM hangover, and how he had puked on himself and in the car... He FELT TERRIBLE about ALL of it... He did yesterday too... And the day before that...

So how can this poor child change his mind any more? His mind is already completely changed... Until tonight... [Most addicts have this same condition of soul, btw - They hate their addiction while being a slave to it... Ask anyone who has been addicted, say, to internet porn, or sudoku, or drugs...] Then ask the ones who have OVERCOME an addiction HOW they did it, how they actually managed to REPENT from an addiction, and you will find a labor of blood, sweat, tears and love... And an ongoing battle... A huge WORK... And the much more so with the Faith of Christ... For you cannot keep your porn and roam around in the kingdom of heaven... Oh, you WILL be roaming around all right, but NOT in the kingdom of heaven, but in hell...

The FIRST WORD of the Faith of Jesus Christ is REPENT... It is the ENTIRE GOSPEL of the Fore-Runner John the Baptist... "Make a straight road in the wilderness, level the hills and fill in the valleys... Make a HIGHWAY for our God! Without this work, there IS NO FAITH... You can believe till you are blue in the face, and your faith will be dead - You will sit at table with the drunk in the morning and believe yourself right up to your first drink, and then you will be lost in sin until the darkness passes... And then you will preach God's righteousness, and then do the works of darkness...

IF you do not make the Faith your primary life's WORK, you will lose yourself in the very SELF you have decided NOT to deny... Faith is a work, no question... And without the works of the Faith, there is only the dead faith of the morning temporarily-sober drunk... The one who talks, and then does not do the talk... If you do not walk the talk, you cannot talk the walk... Monday morning quarterbacks never won the stooper-bowl...

The Faith of Jesus Christ is repentance or it is nothing... And repentance is not effortless mental intellectualizing where merely rearranging concepts has so called "meaning", nor is it some great emotional breakthrough that shakes the earth, but is the "resistance against sin unto your own blood..." It is hard and dirty work of labors and prayer and fasting and self denial and pain... It is the COST of discipleship... The "thinking part" is easy, and many are overjoyed to understand rightly, but the ground of such thinking is shallow and dries out in trials, and the Faith dies...

RB - Glad you liked the rant! So what WAS your central point again? Sorry I missed it... Roman Catholic beliefs on birth control and the Ten Commandments? I am getting old these days...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

If I might... metanoeo means " to change one's thinking". In the imperative (as Jesus used it in the first teaching of his public ministry) it renders as the listener being exhorted to do something... "Change your mind!" would be a valid rendering of the Greek... in fact "Change your attitude" is an arguable one... it is a directive to act -- to do something. metanoia (a change of mind) is the result of the action of changing one's mind..

Sure, and faith itself becomes an action if one defines "action" broadly enough. But that doesn't help us when we're discussing Scriptures which contrast faith and works.

[themuzicman]

(Which is why understanding what "works" in each context is important. In Romans and Galatians, "works" are doing the works of the Law, attempting to achieve justification through the works of the Old Covenant. In Eph 2, Paul is not specific about what works he is speaking of, other than to say that no one may boast as a result of them. It seems fairly clear that he is using "works" in the same way as Galatians and Romans, here. So, any works that aren't of the Old Covenant law, and wouldn't merit justification apart from grace would not be part of what is spoken of in these verses.)

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Faith is not a work… faith is no more a work than breathing.

All you have to do is THINK IT, right? And THEN just BELIEVE your THOUGHTS, yes?

And VOILA! YOU, Rockstar, HAVE the FAITH given once for all to the Apostles!!!

!!!!!!HOOOOOOOOORRRRRAAAAAAYYYYYYY!!!!!!

Changing our hearts and minds (repentance) is a work.

Is it the work of the Faith given once, for all, to the Apostles? Is there faith without repentance?

You see, Faith does not come without repentance...

The CALL to the Faith is the call to repentance, as John called out in the Wilderness as Elijah, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness"...

Faith manifests as works… Jesus taught that so clearly… “as you believe… ”according to your faith…” things are done… “all I do and more…” “all is possible…” to one who has faith/believes… on the flip side “a good tree brings forth good fruit…” “you know the tree by the fruit…”

These are all results of the works of faith... You cannot separate faith from works... When you do, the faith is dead...

Everyone believes… has faith in something.

My brother said the same - Everyone has to believe in SOMETHING, he would say... And THEN he would say: "I BELIEVE.... I most assurredly believe... Oh yeah by Brethren I DO believe.... That I will have another beer!"

Whatever we believe will manifest…

That's why the sun rises each morning, right?

We cannot stop this just as we cannot stop the sun from rising…

All THAT because I believe in the sun rising! Whodathunkit?

it is a basic metaphysical truth taught by both Moses and Jesus.

Jesus and Moses agree with ME??? The manifestation of the sunrise is because of my BELIEF??? WOW!

We choose based on what we believe, we perceive through the lens of what we believe, we raise our children in accordance with what we believe… our choices and actions are a manifestation of what we believe (know the tree by the fruit)… That is why Jesus' first teaching focuses on our minds... our beliefs... our understandings... he tells us we must change them!

The first teaching of Christ was John the Baptist, and he taught repentance, a work...
Upon his death, Scripture records Jesus Himself took up John's words...

METANOIA translates REPENTANCE
Which you agree is a work...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Faith itself becomes an action if one defines "action" broadly enough.
But that doesn't help us when we're discussing Scriptures which contrast faith and works.

Those scriptures are contrasting the Faith of Christ with the Works of the Law...

The Faith of Christ is a HUGE work for mankind...

IF you believe, THEN you will DO...
AND
IF your DO, THEN you WILL believe...

The COMMANDMENT to love your brother as yourself is not a commandment to you to generate some emotional feeling of love toward him... It is to love him as your SELF... And if you desire to follow Christ, you will DENY your SELF... And this narrowly delimits the ACTION that love IS toward your brother...

Love itself, you see, is an action... Indeed, a WORK...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Here is a little CS Lewis vignette on metania and works synergizing as one action...

When you are behaving as if you loved someone,
you will presently come to love him.

If you injure someone you dislike,
you will find yourself disliking him more.

If you do him a good turn,
you will find yourself disliking him less. -

From "Mere Christianity"...

Arsenios

[RonC]

Ah friend George… read my words with love as I read yours… One step at a time… and please don’t assume you know where I am going and thus address where I have not tread… Please understand that I am not in good enough shape to address long postings… so one step at a time…

First the concept of faith. You misunderstand my use of the term. I am not talking of faith in God, I am addressing the concept of faith itself. Everyone has faith in something... everyone believes something... all of our lives are dictated by what we believe. The Greek pisteuo means to trust or have faith in... Some Greeks had faith in Zeus... some people believe in power... some knell at the altar of riches... but all have faith... just not faith in God...

Changing our understanding (metanoeo) impacts our beliefs… what we put belief/trust/faith in. What we put our faith in changes if we change our understandings (repent). Jesus addresses this in Mark 1:15: “Change your understanding and believe in the good news”… Change from what you have been believing and believe in the good news… metanoeo makes no sense if we do not have an understanding already… fear not just have faith... change your "fear-thinking" and have faith... in God

Abraham was righteous not because of the manifestation (his willingness to sacrifice his offspring) but because of his faith... his faith was the tree from which the manifestation (action) grew... Just as Jesus taught that we know the tree by the fruit, Abraham showed the depth of his faith by the manifestation... they are inseparable... that is why James speaks of works and faith as he does... the same for Paul... if the scriptures are read thru the lens of this understanding, the concepts of faith and action may take on a greater clarity...

Can we agree thus far?

Best,
RonC

[RBerman]

(Which is why understanding what "works" in each context is important. In Romans and Galatians, "works" are doing the works of the Law, attempting to achieve justification through the works of the Old Covenant. In Eph 2, Paul is not specific about what works he is speaking of, other than to say that no one may boast as a result of them. It seems fairly clear that he is using "works" in the same way as Galatians and Romans, here. So, any works that aren't of the Old Covenant law, and wouldn't merit justification apart from grace would not be part of what is spoken of in these verses.)

What works can Christians do which are not "works of the law" given that "love God" and "love your neighbor" are works of the Mosaic law?

[Phat8594]

I've also heard that the Greek grammar proves that in "this is not of yourselves", the "this" cannot refer to faith.

Gender's don't match. The Greek, along with context show that Paul si speaking of salvation, not faith. The work of salvation is all God, none of man.

James is a different book, and a different human author, addressing a different problem than Paul.

Author's intent! I love it!

[Phat8594]

If it's something you do it is a work, and the Bible never says we are saved by faith ALONE. The only tome those words are together the doctrine is condemned in James 2 (And here comes the hoard of sola fideists to tell me what it "Means").

The issue is that James is dealing with a different issue than Paul. The context of James 2 is speaking about a particular "type" of faith: one without works.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

James, of course, explains that faith without works is dead. And I think we can all agree that a "dead" faith does not save.