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Thread: Book Plunge: Seeing Through Christianity

  1. #11
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I had never heard of the publisher Xlibris. Turns out it's a self publishing company.
    There are a lot of those around these days, it seems. You can find some good material that's been self-published, but the quality overall tends to be markedly lower (there's a reason publishers pay editors).
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  2. #12
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Part 7 is on faith.

    The link can be found here.

    ------

    What does it mean to have faith? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    It's been awhile since I've done Zuersher's book, which is mainly because having to review stuff like this after awhile feels like pulling teeth, but I think we need to get into it again. Today, we're going to be looking at one of the favorite topics. Faith. This is one new atheists and internet atheists always get wrong. It won't be a shock that that happens again.

    We're not disappointed. Right at the start Hebrews 11:1 is quoted and then we're told that this is a substitute for evidence and admittance to Heaven. This is interesting because first off, heaven isn't even mentioned in Hebrews 11:1. One could say the rest of the chapter does speak about looking for a heavenly city and such, but the notion is not equivalent to our whole going to Heaven when you die idea. Second, I faith is not seen as opposed to evidence and this is something I have written more about elsewhere.

    Zuersher*says the definition above means accepting something as true despite their being insufficient grounds. Of course, Zuersher could have bothered doing some actual research on the topic, but alas, that is too difficult. It's better to just place faith in the new atheist mantra.*

    For Zuersher, this means faith is arbitrary. A person can have faith in anything and no one person's would be better than another's. Of course, this only happens to work if the claim is true about what faith is. It is not. One wonders that if this was what faith is, why do we even have the New Testament at all?

    When asked what determines faith, Zuersher points to where we're born. There's no doubt that if you're born in Iran, you're more likely to be a Muslim or if you're born in India, you're more likely to be a Hindu, but there are also noted exceptions. Many people do convert even at the threat of death. Do they do so with no reason whatsoever?*

    What about what we believe scientifically? If you are born in a third world jungle that is pre-scientific, you might think the sun goes around the Earth and that evolution is bogus. You're much less likely to think that if you are born in America. If you are born in Alaska as an Eskimo, you're much more likely to think that blubber of sea animals is part of a healthy diet. We could go on and on.*

    We have the quote of Tertullian on how it is to be believed because it is absurd, but it is bizarre to think that Tertullian was opposed to evidence. His claim was rather that this is believed because no one would make up something this ridiculous. It was a turnaround on Marcion thinking that the claim was ridiculous.*

    Zuersher also says that according to John, Jesus was with the disciples for three years and yet needed better evidence to believe in the resurrection and asks "Do we not deserve equally compelling evidence?" Well, no. Why should you? What is so special about Zuersher that he deserves a personal appearance from the Almighty? (One is sure he'd chalk it up as a hallucination anyway.) Zuersher instead discounts the account as hearsay, despite the claim being from an eyewitness in John 21, something Bauckham makes a compelling case for in*Jesus and the Eyewitnesses. (Don't expect Zuersher to go look for counter-evidence. It'll challenge his faith too much.)

    Zuersher also says faith is a problem because it elevates belief over conduct. As long as you believe, that's all that matters. Has he never read the book of James?! Has he never read the condemnations of wicked practice in Paul, the one who would be seen as the great apostle of faith? In fact, Zuersher in this very section quotes James and yet ignores what he says about works and faith together. Zuersher paints apologists as saying that no one is good enough, which is true, but then that means that good and bad conduct don't really matter. Where is the apologist that is arguing this please Zuersher? Please show him to me.*

    Zuersher then says that to turn belief into a salvific credential while denying a person's conduct is morally repugnant. I agree. Would he please point me to the apologist who is saying otherwise? I know hundreds if not thousands of them. I don't know a single one who would disagree.

    Naturally, Zuersher does not understand Pascal's Wager which he goes after. Pascal is not presenting this to the person as a reason to believe without evidence. He's talking about the person who's sitting on the fence and could go either way and just isn't sure. Pascal says if you're just not sure and think there's evidence on both sides, go with Christianity! At least you have a gain there. We see he does not understand this because the wager does not tell you which god or goddess to believe in. It's not supposed to. It's for a specific kind of individual in a specific situation. I may not really agree with the wager, but I can easily wager that Zuersher has never read Pascal.*

    Sometime soon we will return to Zuersher. As one can see, it is difficult to read someone like this who actually thinks he's informed enough to write a book on the topic.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  3. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    One of my pet peeves it the false description of faith. This guy actually cited Hebrews 11 and still got it wrong? That almost looks like dishonesty rather than a failure to understand.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  5. #14
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Is there a problem with judgment?

    The link can be found here.

    ------

    Is there a problem with judgment? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    The next chapter of Zuersher's book is about the judgment. Zuersher starts by saying that few people will make it into Heaven and more will go into Hell. For this, he cites Matthew 7:14 with the gate being small that leads to eternal life and only few will find it.*

    In the interest of fairness, it's understandable that people go here, but I don't think it makes the case. There are some going back, and I think this even includes B.B. Warfield, who contended that this was a response to Christ's immediate teaching. Few of the Jewish people living in Israel would respond positively to the message.*

    He also goes to John 14:6 with Jesus saying no man comes to the Father but through me. Again, this is a true text, but I wonder about the interpretation. All that is said here is that in essence, Jesus is the doorkeeper. If we compared it to a bar, Jesus is the bouncer and no man gets in unless He gives the okay.

    Does that mean that one has to explicitly know the name of Jesus to be saved? No. Consider if we went to the text that says whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. What that means is that if you call on the name of the Lord, that is sufficient for you to be saved. What it does not say is that only those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. While I do hold that God could admit many who have never explicitly heard of Jesus in the pagan world today based on what they do with the light they have, we know of many people already saved who did not know the name of Jesus. They are Old Testament saints.*

    Zuersher says that even if we accept the existence of an afterlife, an eternity where few will be saved and most won't be is unfair. I question that that is what will happen, but even if it was, what is unfair about it? Does God somehow owe certain people an eternal bliss? If so, on what basis?

    Zuersher*also says that if his argument is true, those who lived before Jesus and those who live in places where they cannot know of Him and places where other religions dominate are all automatically lost. The problem is as I have shown, one can hold to the truth of the text and still think Zuersher is wrong. Zuersher again shows the case of not doing any study to realize there are multiple viewpoints.*

    Zuersher also regularly acts like people who are consigned to Hell do so through on fault of their own. Why should anyone think this is true? Romans 1 and 2 both tell us that there is sufficient reason to know that God exists and to know right from wrong. Someone will be judged not because of what they didn't know about Jesus, but because of what they didn't do right in their lives. A Christian like myself just says God will give everyone what is right. God does not owe anyone anything, but He is also going to be just and righteous in His judgments even if I do not understand how that works out and no one will be able to say "It wasn't fair."

    Zuersher replies to this point and says that it is actually reasonable. (Of course, it brings me great joy beyond expression to know that Zuersher thinks the argument is reasonable) What Zuersher wants to know is why can't God judge everyone on this basis? If knowledge of Jesus is not needed, then Jesus died for nothing.

    That last part doesn't follow. Just because one might not need to explicitly know about Jesus doesn't mean Jesus's death did nothing. Jesus's death is what made it possible for people to have their sins atoned for. Having someone make a huge donation to a college makes it possible for people who do not know the person to go to that college, but that going would not be possible had it not been for the donation.

    I also don't think Zuersher would really want the idea of judging everyone based on their actions. This is the case in much of Islam and it can lead to living in a state of fear. It's also rather arbitrary. Suppose each good action had a point system and gave so many plus points and each evil one took away so many points. Would that not be a totally arbitrary system? Instead, God has the same standard for everyone, perfection, and yet has provided a way to meet that standard.

    We conclude again that Zuersher doesn't really know what he's talking about. He has only taken a surface level look at the claims and not gone any deeper than that. Sadly, this seems to be common in many circles, both atheist and Christian, and it leads to people arguing cases they think they understand, but that they really don't.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  6. #15
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Christ died to save sinners. I am of the persuasion that all men are potentially lost because of their personal sin. I am also of the persuasion that on account of Christ's finished work on the cross all men's names were from eternity past placed in His book of life (Revelation 20:15). So children who have not come of age where they must accept Christ, are safe in Christ (Mark 10:14-15; John 3:3).

    Men judging others saying they are lost does not make them lost - if they have been born of God in Christ (1 John 5:4-5, 12; Revelation 3:5). On the other hand, saying any lost men are saved when they are yet lost is damnable thing to do.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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