John 3:13: No one had gone up into Heaven

[Buri]

Hey guys!

To begin with, I'm not 100% if I'm posting this in the right section so sorry if I am!

I have a question regarding this verse which I quote from the NIV to say:

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

I've always known and understood that Elijah and Enoch were both taken up into Heaven. However, that seems to contradict the verse above. I've read a few explanations for this. Some say that the Hebrew word in the account of Elijah used for Heaven actually means the sky and they go to deduce something similar with Enoch. They also cite things like Elijah having written a letter about 8 years after being "taken up into heaven". But I've also read a different explanation of this which is based on the context of John 3:13. They say Jesus is saying that he is the only one who has this authority because he's the only one who had ever gone up and brought down knowledge to teach. So I've heard the argument from both sides and I'm wondering now which one is right? Or do they both work out together fine? To me they both make sense, but not sure if either of these could create any theological problems. I'd appreciate the help. Thanks a lot!

[Littlejoe]

Hi Buri!
Welcome to TWEB! You have posted in a theist only area, so, your thread may be moved. Non-theists posting here are supposed to ask permission first. If you are sincerely asking this question, and not trying to post what you perceive to be an apparent "contradiction", then we may go ahead and leave the thread in place. So, let's see how this goes!

When it comes to understanding scripture that apparently contradicts other scripture, we first want to look at the context...who is he speaking to, what scripture is he referencing when he says it, and what is clarifying his point before and after the "contradictory" statement. So, let's first look at who he is speaking to:

John 3:1 tells us that he is talking to Nicodemus, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews. Now, a Pharisee is going to be a cut above the "normal" everyday working man Jew. Assuredly, he is a student of the Tanakh at the least...then in verse 9 Jesus tells us he is a Teacher of Israel, meaning of course, he teaches the scriptures in the Temple. So, when Jesus makes the statement in verse 13, there is no doubt that Nicodemus knew the scipture Jesus was quoting, and what Jesus meant. Jesus is quoting from the old testament book of Deuteronomy chapter 30:12:

Deut 30:11-14 ESV

11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

So, in answer to your question, the second premise is closer to the right answer, Jesus is basically telling Nicodemus, (and basing it on the Old Testament mandate from God) that he (Jesus) is the only teacher of heavenly things, since he is the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and returned to Earth. Jesus, therefore concludes that, if he, (Nicodemus, and the rest of the Jews), did not receive the teachings and instructions he was giving them, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them...including Enoch and Elijah!

Hope that helps
LJ

[Buri]

Oh sorry I didn't know! Yes it definitely is a sincere question, but who am I supposed to ask permission from? I'm a former Christian actually and my girlfriend is also a former Christian but she's been studying with Jehovah Witnesses recently and she comes to me with teachings I have never heard of. Oddly enough, I'm opening my bible more as an atheist than as a Christian now because I'm trying to figure things out on my own and yesterday we both decided to start reading our Bibles together to try to get our boat afloat again before it sinks. So I'd definitely would like to continue asking questions in here because this is where I'll be sure to find answers.

Thanks for your answer! I'm actually quite surprised to find out that he's quoting Deuteronomy because I hadn't read that anywhere. So yes it does seem to make more sense with the second explanation, but where does it leave the first? It seems to make sense too doesn't it? Like is there something wrong with the first explanation? Because I do know that Elijah appears again at the Transfiguration so it really does seem that he went to Heaven, but I've read he wrote a letter after being taken up so what's the explanation for this? I've read that coregency could be an explanation but also that he was merely translated to somewhere else. However, Elisha telling the 50 men not to go looking for him seems to almost discard the possibility, but maybe he knew he was just well hid so that's why? That sounds dumb to say but it's a possibility I suppose.

[Littlejoe]

Oh sorry I didn't know! Yes it definitely is a sincere question, but who am I supposed to ask permission from?

Yes, we recognized you as a newbie pretty quickly! Ok, glad to hear you are being sincere, and are sincerely looking/seeking, but, as long as you continue to be an atheist, you will need permission from a moderator of that forum to post in theist only areas. There are several levels to our mod. staff. Folks with the dark blue names (like mine) are 1st level forum mods, we are referred to as Professors. (Think of TWEB as a College Campus!) They are over individual forums like Theology 201, or Christianity 201 in this Department. Which brings us to the next level of mod, the Department Heads, their names are in Green. Next level is the Oranges who are Deans, then a name in Red is one of the owners of the site. I am not a moderator over this area so, whether this thread stays or not isn't up to me...I do know it is being discussed though.
There are several ways to find mods for a particular area...the easiest to do if you are already in a thread such as this one is to click on the bread crumb link to the forum near the top left of the page...right above the big blue + Reply to Thread button. You see the house, then Forum -> Systematic Theo. Dep -> Theology 201. If you click on any of those it will take you to the home page for that area. Click on the Theo 201 link and scroll to the bottom and you will see all of the mods for that area. You can also get a full list of all mod on the site by clicking either the Home page button or the Forum page button. Scroll to the bottom and there is a hyperlink to all Tweb mods in the blue section at the bottom...
Also, (very important) at the top of each area page is a read me link that tell you who can post in what area, and what the topics can be.

I'm a former Christian actually and my girlfriend is also a former Christian but she's been studying with Jehovah Witnesses recently and she comes to me with teachings I have never heard of. Oddly enough, I'm opening my bible more as an atheist than as a Christian now because I'm trying to figure things out on my own and yesterday we both decided to start reading our Bibles together to try to get our boat afloat again before it sinks. So I'd definitely would like to continue asking questions in here because this is where I'll be sure to find answers.

Well, I certainly encourage you to continue to seek the truth! Again, I want to caution you, Tweb is a big place and this area isn't for asking Jehovah Witness perspective questions either! We actually have a Jehovah Witness forum that you can ask those type questions! It is found in the World Religions Dept.

Thanks for your answer! I'm actually quite surprised to find out that he's quoting Deuteronomy because I hadn't read that anywhere. So yes it does seem to make more sense with the second explanation, but where does it leave the first? It seems to make sense too doesn't it?

Well...no not really in my mind.

Like is there something wrong with the first explanation?

Well, to me, it doesn't make sense either logically or theologically. As a Christian, I believe Jesus is the messiah, savior, I don't believe he is either wrong or lying...so, as a believer, I tend to frame my explanations keeping that in mind...
Logically, if the Hebrew word simply meant sky and not Heaven, then where did they go? Up to the stratosphere? Troposphere? The Moon? So, I believe they went somewhere other than just the sky...theologically, as I said, the first explanation puts Jesus in either the liar or lunatic dept...so, that's not an option to me at this time...and I don't think there would be such a contradiction in scripture...because taken at face value, you can't just say that it contradicts Elijah or Enoch's ascent, but it calls into question everyone's ascent to heaven....which means, this is probably a JW induced question now that I think about it...because they believe in Soul Sleep until the resurrection.

Because I do know that Elijah appears again at the Transfiguration so it really does seem that he went to Heaven, but I've read he wrote a letter after being taken up so what's the explanation for this?

Well, yes, but, you have to realize that even though Elijah was seen, he didn't teach anything, so again, Jesus' words are still true, in context.

I've read that coregency could be an explanation but also that he was merely translated to somewhere else. However, Elisha telling the 50 men not to go looking for him seems to almost discard the possibility, but maybe he knew he was just well hid so that's why? That sounds dumb to say but it's a possibility I suppose.

Ok, yeah, it's now more obvious that you are asking questions inspired by JW theology with this last bit...JW's would say that Enoch was not taken to heaven, but he was taken to the sky, then of course he died and was then "carried over" which they would say is a euphemism for buried. Again, I need to point out to you that Theology 201 area is for questions and debate about "orthodox" (small "o") christian beliefs...and JW theology doesn't fall within that purview.

LJ

[Buri]

Oka I'll have to read on the structure of the site andI guess I'll just wait and see where this gets placed.

First of all I'd like to say that everything I've said isn't JW inspired or at least I think not as I went through quite a few sites and I alwayd came across these two explanations to avoid a contradiction. But the verse was given to my girlfriend to ponder on before she received an explanation for it so I don't know the JW explanation for it yet. I had never noticed the verse as a Christian so it made me think a lot and I couldn't arrive at an answer which led me to research it but I found these two explanations for it. Also, treat me like a Christian for the sake of this question because as of yet I do not know of any inconsistencies in the Bible. So when you tell me that you can't take Jesus as a liar or lunatic I am also.

Even if it were illogical I don't see how that would make Jesus a liar. As Jesus is talking about something very different. Couldn't it very well just be the sky? Because if it were that doesn't lead to a contradiction with what Jesus said. The way I see it is if it's Heaven or the sky or the moon it doesn't seem to have any bearing on what Jesus says in John 3:13. Also Elijah appearing at the Transfiguration still doesn't lead to a contradiction with what Jesus says as you noted. What I'm getting at is this I suppose:

Those who use explanation (1) use it because they're not seeing explanation (2) (maybe another reason but I'll be naive) and those who use explanation (2) don't even need explanation (1) as they're very distinct situations. (2) seems to be the correct explanation but if I were to take (1) and think Elijah didn't go to Heaven does that lead to something theologically wrong? Something specific if there is? I guess I'd just hope that I could discard one of them because it leads to something wrong rather than because one is more probable/logical than the other. Know what I mean?

Please ignore the fact that I'm an atheist and that I mentioned JWs. I know, it's an awful combination lol I feel like such the ugly duckling in here lol

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I feel like such the ugly duckling in here lol

We are ALL Ugly Ducklings here, my Brother... No exceptions...

fwiw, I was an atheist for 36 long years...
I can still prove God does not exist...
AND
I can prove that He does...

And both proofs reconcile...

Rather easily, I might add...

So welcome to T-Web - We have a good bunch of folks here...

And please be asking permission to post here a lot!

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

if I were to take (1) [a naturalistic explanation] and think Elijah didn't go to Heaven does that lead to something theologically wrong?

The old Hebrew indeed says that Elijah was taken up into the heavens, and that means the sky... Hebrew is a very literal language... Yet to the Hebrew faithful, it can mean much more, and in this case, where the event itself is not natural, it does... But Heaven is one thing, and not dying is another, and being taken up is a third... I go to the NT and find the Thief on the Cross [the greatest of all thieves, for he stole the Kingdom of Heaven] to whom Christ said: "Behold this day I will see you in Paradise..." The big-O Orthodox do not at all equate Paradise with Heaven, for we understand Heaven to be the Life of the Age to Come, of which we have an earnest now, but later we will have in full, after the Last Judgement, in which we will again have BODIES... Resurrected bodies... Immortal bodies... But Elijah is a special case, a Prophet who was bodily taken up in Fire into the heavens, who did not die, but who sent down from the Heavens his Grace upon his disciple Elisha... How that all works I have no idea... Revelation has him coming back to earth at the end of the Age we are now [for the last 2000 years] in to help wrap things up... Because he did not die... And all will die...

We are happy with holding this as a Mystery...

Indeed, this Faith of Christ is itself a Mystery held, as Paul writes, in a purified conscience...

Arsenios

[ttruscott]

I am enjoying this site a lot and this thread is interesting.

I'm surprised no one has suggested
2 Corinthians 12:1-7 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.
3 And I know that such a person -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows --

as a problem to John 3:13. I find the words "whether in the body or out of the body" to indicate that it was the real person Paul who was caught up and not just a vision of being caught up as some take from vesrs 1...which visions and revelations I relate to verse 4: ...and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.

Peace to all,

Ted

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I am enjoying this site a lot and this thread is interesting.

I'm surprised no one has suggested
2 Corinthians 12:1-7 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.
3 And I know that such a person -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows --

as a problem to John 3:13. I find the words "whether in the body or out of the body" to indicate that it was the real person Paul who was caught up and not just a vision of being caught up as some take from vesrs 1...which visions and revelations I relate to verse 4: ...and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.

Peace to all,

Ted

3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
except he that came down from heaven,
indeed, the Son of man Who is in heaven.

The resolution comes in Baptism,
because we are baptized into Christ, the Son of Man,
Who came down from Heaven and has ascended up into Heaven...

In Christ, you see, we can ascend into and descend from Heaven...
Because Christ descended and ascended...
That is why we are baptized into Christ...

Welcome to T-Web!

Arsenios

[Littlejoe]

I am enjoying this site a lot and this thread is interesting.

I'm surprised no one has suggested
2 Corinthians 12:1-7 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows.
3 And I know that such a person -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows --

as a problem to John 3:13. I find the words "whether in the body or out of the body" to indicate that it was the real person Paul who was caught up and not just a vision of being caught up as some take from vesrs 1...which visions and revelations I relate to verse 4: ...and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.

Peace to all,

Ted

Well, this happened after Christ, so it wouldn't negate Christ's words as he said no-one had ever (before him).....also, if we are to take Christ's words as being forever binding, then we would have to logically conclude it was a vision and physical wouldn't you think?

LJ

[ttruscott]

a vision and physical, LJ...this went over my head, :(

peace, Ted

[Littlejoe]

Sorry, a vision and Not physical...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I find the words "whether in the body or out of the body" to indicate that it was the real person Paul who was caught up and not just a vision of being caught up as some take from verse 1...which visions and revelations I relate to verse 4: ...and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
Ted

Just a quibble with the translation of 4 -

oti hrpagh eiv ton paradeison
That he was taken up into Paradaise

kai hkousen arrhta rhmata
and heard unspoken words

a ouk exon anyrwpw lalhsai
which it is not lawful to man to speak

Paul ascended, no question - And better to say he WAS ascended - up to heaven...
In that state of ascent, one is not aware of separation from the body, nor of non-separation...
That understanding would, I should think, accurately exegete the text...
At least until such time as we are similarly taken up...

Arsenios

[ttruscott]

Just a quibble with the translation of 4 -

oti hrpagh eiv ton paradeison
That he was taken up into Paradaise

kai hkousen arrhta rhmata
and heard unspoken words

a ouk exon anyrwpw lalhsai
which it is not lawful to man to speak

Paul ascended, no question - And better to say he WAS ascended - up to heaven...
In that state of ascent, one is not aware of separation from the body, nor of non-separation...
That understanding would, I should think, accurately exegete the text...
At least until such time as we are similarly taken up...

Arsenios

So, if Paul as actually in heaven, in spirit or body, does that contradict John 3:13: No one had gone up into Heaven except someone who has come down from there like/as did the Son of Man?

Peace, Ted

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So, if Paul as actually in heaven, in spirit or body, does that contradict John 3:13: No one had gone up into Heaven except someone who has come down from there like/as did the Son of Man?

Peace, Ted

,

ONLY Christ can ascend, Who has DESCENDED FROM heaven...
Paul is, by virtue of his Baptism at the hands of Ananias, from whom He received the Holy Spirit,
IN CHRIST, for it is by Baptism that we are Baptized into Christ, even into His Death on the Cross...

So that being IN Christ by Baptism, he indeed CAN [by Grace] ascend and descend into the Heavens...
Not on his own, but he WAS ASCENDED [passive voice in the Greek]... He was taken up...
And in virtue of all his visions and revelations and events he was getting puffed up...
And God sent him a thorn in his flesh to help him keep humble...
That he thereby rejoiced in his infirmities...

Arsenios