JW Christology and Isaiah 6, John

[JAYMZ]

Scripture Verse:

John 12:37-41
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

Scripture Verse:

Isaiah 6
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Isaiah 6
Isaiah’s Commission
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”

4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

Ok. How do modern Arians like JWs interpret these verses ? Whos glory did Isaiah see in the OT scripture, and was Jesus Christ inserting himself to the text of Isaiah 6 ? There is really no contextual reason to think that Jesus was referring to some other portion of the book of Isaiah, given the point of Isaiah 6:9-10 and John 12:40.

[apostoli]

Scripture Verse:

John 12:37-41
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

Scripture Verse:

See Isaiah 53

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

See Isaiah 6:8-10.

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

John is pointing primarily to Isaiah 53. Isaiah 6 simply compares Isaiah's rejection with Jesus', however there was a difference... You needed to have kept reading: vs42 "Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue"

Scripture Verse:

Isaiah 6
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Isaiah 6
Isaiah’s Commission
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”

4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

Ok. How do modern Arians like JWs interpret these verses ? Whos glory did Isaiah see in the OT scripture, and was Jesus Christ inserting himself to the text of Isaiah 6 ? There is really no contextual reason to think that Jesus was referring to some other portion of the book of Isaiah, given the point of Isaiah 6:9-10 and John 12:40.[/QUOTE]

[JAYMZ]

See Isaiah 53

See Isaiah 6:8-10.

John is pointing primarily to Isaiah 53. Isaiah 6 simply compares Isaiah's rejection with Jesus', however there was a difference... You needed to have kept reading: vs42 "Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue"

Scripture Verse:

Isaiah 6
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

Isaiah 6
Isaiah’s Commission
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”

4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

Ok. How do modern Arians like JWs interpret these verses ? Whos glory did Isaiah see in the OT scripture, and was Jesus Christ inserting himself to the text of Isaiah 6 ? There is really no contextual reason to think that Jesus was referring to some other portion of the book of Isaiah, given the point of Isaiah 6:9-10 and John 12:40.

[/QUOTE]

I agree that John 12:38 is referring to Isaiah 53. But John 12:39-41 is referring to Isaiah 6. There is no reason not to think that John would not in include Christ with the glory and holiness of God that overwelmed Isaiah in Isaiah 6. The prophetic statement of verse 6:9 comes right on the heels of Isaiah witnessing the glory of God in verses 1-7.

Furthermore, John 12:44-45 further cements Christ in the glory and holiness of God witness by Isaiah in 6.

Scripture Verse:

John 12:44-45
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
44 Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

I am Reformed, so I understand the point that John in the passage is making and why some of them are rejecting Christ. But I don't think we can rule out something broader being said about Who Christ is as well.

[apostoli]

I agree that John 12:38 is referring to Isaiah 53. But John 12:39-41 is referring to Isaiah 6. There is no reason not to think that John would not in include Christ with the glory and holiness of God that overwelmed Isaiah in Isaiah 6. The prophetic statement of verse 6:9 comes right on the heels of Isaiah witnessing the glory of God in verses 1-7.

Furthermore, John 12:44-45 further cements Christ in the glory and holiness of God witness by Isaiah in 6.

Scripture Verse:

John 12:44-45
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
44 Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

I am Reformed, so I understand the point that John in the passage is making and why some of them are rejecting Christ. But I don't think we can rule out something broader being said about Who Christ is as well.

Basically, it comes down to the fact that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him (Jn 6:44). Thus Isaiah 6:8-10, links into Isaiah 53. When John 12:41 says "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him" i take it A.John is refering to Isaiah 53:10-12. Consider John 17:1...