Special Report: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age

[Sparko]

The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are "leaving in droves?" a woman asked.

"We are aware," said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. "And I'm speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care," he said.

"My own daughter," he then added, "has come to me and said, 'Dad, why didn't you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?'"

...Not since a famous troublespot in Mormon history, the 1837 failure of a church bank in Kirtland, Ohio, have so many left the church, Jensen said.
"Maybe since Kirtland, we've never had a period of - I'll call it apostasy, like we're having now," he told the group in Logan.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...80T1CP20120130

[Thersites]

Low retention rates... I guess I shouldn't be that surprised.

[Cow Poke]

I think this actually addresses the thread I started asking if the Internet would have helped or hurt Joseph Smith.

I think, since knowledge is much more readily available, and cannot be "managed" to new converts or inquirers, Mormon history is catching up to Mormonism.

[One Bad Pig]

"I have never ever been associated with an organization that changes as fast as the Mormon church," said former church researcher Ray Briscoe, 79, whose investigations helped spur movement on issues such as the treatment of blacks.

"I don't think God was ever against blacks in the priesthood. We just had to grow up enough to accept it," he said. As for gays -- "it will get there, in my judgment."

Polygamy's really hurting our image? Okay, we'll change that.
Denying blacks the priesthood is really hurting our image? Okay, we'll change that.
Denying gays full membership is really hurting our image? . . .

[One Bad Pig]

I think this actually addresses the thread I started asking if the Internet would have helped or hurt Joseph Smith.

I think, since knowledge is much more readily available, and cannot be "managed" to new converts or inquirers, Mormon history is catching up to Mormonism.

They're trying. If they can use search engine optimization to drive their sites above anti-Mormon sites, that will help more than you might think. Many people just click on the top link when they're looking for information on something.

[Sparko]

I think this actually addresses the thread I started asking if the Internet would have helped or hurt Joseph Smith.

I think, since knowledge is much more readily available, and cannot be "managed" to new converts or inquirers, Mormon history is catching up to Mormonism.

They also mention your favorite Mormon blogger in the article:

That's a common story to PhD student John Dehlin, who conducts conferences nationally for "unorthodox Mormons" wrestling with doubts and has a podcast, mormonstories.org.

"I think this is an epidemic for the church," said Dehlin. "Most of the people we cater to have been life-long members."

[Cow Poke]

They also mention your favorite Mormon blogger in the article:

That's a common story to PhD student John Dehlin, who conducts conferences nationally for "unorthodox Mormons" wrestling with doubts and has a podcast, mormonstories.org.

"I think this is an epidemic for the church," said Dehlin. "Most of the people we cater to have been life-long members."

But LDST already denounced him as a ravening wolf in ill fitting sheeps clothing... whatever....

[Thersites]

I think this actually addresses the thread I started asking if the Internet would have helped or hurt Joseph Smith.

I think, since knowledge is much more readily available, and cannot be "managed" to new converts or inquirers, Mormon history is catching up to Mormonism.

If you can manage the rate at which information is accessed, you can give a false depth and profundity to your theology. The lack of depth in intellectual inquiry in Mormonism has concerned me for some time. There doesn't seem to be any attempt to create a harmony between faith and reason.

[Cow Poke]

If you can manage the rate at which information is accessed, you can give a false depth and profundity to your theology. The lack of depth in intellectual inquiry in Mormonism has concerned me for some time. There doesn't seem to be any attempt to create a harmony between faith and reason.

True - but Mormons pride themselves on the "line upon line, precept upon precept" method of indoctrination of new converts, "managing" the information flow. So, it's not just rate, but selective content (to which you may have been referring) that can be totally undermined by the free access of information on the internet, and elsewhere. "ye shall know the truth...."

[rogue06]

They're trying. If they can use search engine optimization to drive their sites above anti-Mormon sites, that will help more than you might think. Many people just click on the top link when they're looking for information on something.

Even then very few ever go beyond the first page or use a different search engine.

[nrajeff]

"Slavery's really hurting the image of the Baptist Churches? Okay...."

[Cow Poke]

"Slavery's really hurting the image of the Baptist Churches? Okay...."

Does that apostrophe imply an IS or a WAS? Racism is bad, Jeff -- was and is. We were wrong.

We, however, never made it a part of our official theology! Brigham Young, on the other hand....

[nrajeff]

Does that apostrophe imply an IS or a WAS?

It implies the same tense that OBP had in mind in the post I was "mocking."

Racism is bad, Jeff -- was and is. We were wrong.

--It is indeed either a mote or a beam, depending on who you ask.

We, however, never made it a part of our official theology!

I think there were one or more Southern (Christian) churches that preached that the curse of Ham, and God-approved slave-owning, are in God's Holy Word. Some people even say that the issue is what split the American Baptist church apart into a pro-slavery faction and an anti-slavery faction.

Brigham Young, on the other hand....

He may have been as racist as the average white 1850s American was. But as far as the church's official theology goes, I don't know.

[One Bad Pig]

"Slavery's really hurting the image of the Baptist Churches? Okay...."

Slavery was ended by the Emancipation Proclamation. The (Southern) Baptist churches weren't in much of a position to contest with that. Besides, the Baptist tradition is quite strong among African Americans. Then again, the Baptist Church^TM never claimed to be the restoration of true Christianity. And lastly, pointing to some other group and saying, "they did it too!!!111!!!" doesn't make it any better. You're supposed to be better than us orthodox Christians, right?

[Cow Poke]

I think there were one or more Southern (Christian) churches that preached that the curse of Ham, and God-approved slave-owning, are in God's Holy Word.

That's a FAR CRY from "the Baptist Churches", Jeff. Now you're backing away to "one or more Southern (Christian) Churches? But, yes, some of the churches, particularly those associated with the KKK, preached the curse of Ham.

ETA: The fight was more over abolition than "pro-slavery" -- I'll be glad to elaborate if you'd like, but it's beside the point.

Some people even say that the issue is what split the American Baptist church apart into a pro-slavery faction and an anti-slavery faction.

Not just some, Jeff. It's the historical record. So PART of them got it right, eh? And those who got it wrong have subsequently and CLEARLY renounced the racism and admitted it was wrong.

He may have been as racist as the average white 1850s American was.

Likewise, Jeff, that's the historical record. No "may have" about it.

But as far as the church's official theology goes, I don't know.

Yes, Jeff, you do know. But you define "official" in such a way that it's almost impossible to attribute ANY questionable teaching of your Church as "official". Racism was taught as doctrine in your Church.