The present state of Israel and Zech 14

[maudman]

It's strange how some seem to think there is something mysterious as to how an Israel exist today?

Maybe it's not so hard to understand... Maybe It has to do with Indiginious peoples? The united states of America is a nation who's indiginious people were wiped out and supplanted by another.. There was not a Power structure in place that could demonstrte its natural biggoted and prejiduces towards a minority as other nations. Study your history of Jews as minorities in other lands and you'll will understand that Existing power stuctures don't let happen what needs to happen for a foriegn minority to rise to power within its own country.

Ain't no miracles but just murder, death and the things that people do to justify why they have to have things their way, and how they justify or look away as long as they get what they want or need to do what they do. Read Revelation and Look at the Miracles the Beast does. The United states supports Israel because it claims to be a Democracy and historically israel wasn't a democracy. Peoples see what they want to see for the reasons they feel just about..

Israels existance always depended on it parasidic relationship to a host. It's relationships where often and basically a country that was empowered for Gain in western Civilization for one reason or another. In all Israelite relationships of history somebody is getting rich and somebody is paying the Price for the situation. It's the cost of Jerusalem being a Jerusalem with Israel as her Children.. How can we say Christians have failed to justify and Israel in Jerusalem..

[Rach1370]

Welcome to TWeb, Rach.

My own beliefs concerning modern Israel were similar to yours a few years ago. I had a somewhat nebulous idea that maybe God "wasn't done" with them, but upon further examination of Romans 11, I realized that Paul was crystal clear about the fact that God definitely was not done with Abraham's physical descendants, precisely because they were his physical descendants. It is on account of the patriarchs...

It subsequently became clear that Christians had failed just as miserably as the Jews to be "a nation of kings and priests" and that perhaps God's plan all along had been to "reunite the tribes" so to speak and help Christians and Jews do together what neither could do alone. I think that is something like what Paul meant when he spoke of the branches being grafted to the same tree.

Heyho Darfius! I tend to swing one way then the other in regards to Israel. I can see in Romans 9-11 both support for their future and a case for their dismissal. Doesn't worry me overly...God's got it all in hand...happy to trust in Him and wait and see!
I am a little confused on something you said, however. You said that perhaps the nation of Israel and the Church could "do together what neither could do alone". I thought the wonder of salvation was that we don't need to "do anything"! Sure we have the Great commission, but that's going not too bad, isn't it? Granted the amount of Christian heresies that float about are troubling, but as a general rule I thought that grace worked on Christ's merits, not ours. So how is it we're failing in what we needed to do? Just wondering! Ta.

[Darfius]

Heyho Darfius! I tend to swing one way then the other in regards to Israel. I can see in Romans 9-11 both support for their future and a case for their dismissal. Doesn't worry me overly...God's got it all in hand...happy to trust in Him and wait and see!

You can never go wrong trusting Him, but we are also told to watch for signs of His coming, so it's somewhat important whether Israel is such, which is why sean made this thread.

I am a little confused on something you said, however. You said that perhaps the nation of Israel and the Church could "do together what neither could do alone". I thought the wonder of salvation was that we don't need to "do anything"! Sure we have the Great commission, but that's going not too bad, isn't it? Granted the amount of Christian heresies that float about are troubling, but as a general rule I thought that grace worked on Christ's merits, not ours. So how is it we're failing in what we needed to do? Just wondering! Ta.

Salvation is not wonderful enough that we need to add a sweetener like "doing nothing" for it? Besides, James made it clear that faith without works was not faith at all. And not to be rude, but the phrase "Christ's merits" does not appear in any version of the New Testament that I've read.

As to the success of the Great Commission, I am an American and our country is currently in the midst of a debate on whether or not we are making birth control easy enough for women to have. There is not a single country on earth that identifies as Christian (Catholic doesn't count). The UN, which Obama claims the American military answers to over and above the United States Congress, is explicitly secular at best and usually New Agey. And that's not even mentioning the vast swath of atheists, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists worldwide that far outnumber Christians even when one adds the papists to the mix.

I hope my tone is not offputting. I have a frankness that is unfortunately sometimes mistaken for rudeness.

[franktalk]

• Edited by a Moderator •

[Rach1370]

You can never go wrong trusting Him, but we are also told to watch for signs of His coming, so it's somewhat important whether Israel is such, which is why sean made this thread.

I agree with watching, but I do feel that sometimes people are so keen for Jesus' coming they read into world happenings. When we do some reading on Church history, we see that pretty much every generation since Christ thought they were the last generation! They all saw 'signs' that spoke to them. So I guess my point was, that while I do feel that Israel being back in their land now is very significant in many ways, I'm not willing to jump to any conclusions!

Salvation is not wonderful enough that we need to add a sweetener like "doing nothing" for it? Besides, James made it clear that faith without works was not faith at all. And not to be rude, but the phrase "Christ's merits" does not appear in any version of the New Testament that I've read.

Oh, I totally agree...any who claim to have a true faith but cannot be seen to live it outwardly, should doubt their regeneration. I think two great dangers arise from what the gospel gives us. A tendency to be so intent on 'good works' that we try to add to grace. And a tendency licentiousness, where a life is lived in sin under the banner of "Jesus' got it for me". Neither are the true gospel.

As to the success of the Great Commission, I am an American and our country is currently in the midst of a debate on whether or not we are making birth control easy enough for women to have. There is not a single country on earth that identifies as Christian (Catholic doesn't count). The UN, which Obama claims the American military answers to over and above the United States Congress, is explicitly secular at best and usually New Agey. And that's not even mentioning the vast swath of atheists, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists worldwide that far outnumber Christians even when one adds the papists to the mix.

I hope my tone is not offputting. I have a frankness that is unfortunately sometimes mistaken for rudeness.

Isn't the 'great commission' a success as long as the number of Christians continue to grow? There will always be sin and the work of the enemy in this world. We will only achieve a perfect, Christian world in the new one! So every new soul that hears of Jesus and receives salvation is the continuation of that demand of Jesus!

And as far as your tone...pfft! My old board would tolerate soooo much worse! You're being a gentleman!

[Brown Cat]

We are indeed here. It just doesn't surprise me that we're here, given that we support a nation whose very existence is a negative symbol of Western intervention by its neighbors, who control a resource we greatly covet.

As Sean pointed out, how we first got here was by Israel fighting for and unexpectedly winning its 1948 war for survival, largely all by itself against better armed and more numerous enemies and doing it again in 1967 and 1973. Also one can't just limit the reasons for militant Islamic antagonism against Israel only it being a "negative symbol of Western intervention." Historically antisemitism goes much deeper than that.

Another thing I'm wondering is why Iran even bothers with Israel. Surely they don't really care all that much about the plight of the Palestinians.

[seanD]

Isn't the 'great commission' a success as long as the number of Christians continue to grow? There will always be sin and the work of the enemy in this world. We will only achieve a perfect, Christian world in the new one! So every new soul that hears of Jesus and receives salvation is the continuation of that demand of Jesus!

Yes, the spreading of the gospel of Christ to the world (and the technology that makes that possible now) is indeed a very positive thing, but it seems preterist are especially hung up on that as evidence against futurism, when things in the world in fact show just the opposite that Christianity is winning in the world.

[Rach1370]

Yes, the spreading of the gospel of Christ to the world (and the technology that makes that possible now) is indeed a very positive thing, but it seems preterist are especially hung up on that as evidence against futurism, when things in the world in fact show just the opposite that Christianity is winning in the world.

Hey! So, just trying to put this all together...are Preterist's also Post millennialists?

[seanD]

I dunno. I get so many conflicting and varying views that it's hard to keep track of all these belief systems and labels.

[RBerman]

As Sean pointed out, how we first got here was by Israel fighting for and unexpectedly winning its 1948 war for survival, largely all by itself against better armed and more numerous enemies and doing it again in 1967 and 1973. Also one can't just limit the reasons for militant Islamic antagonism against Israel only it being a "negative symbol of Western intervention." Historically antisemitism goes much deeper than that.

The Western phenomenon of anti-Semitism is theologically, culturally, and historically different from Muslim-Jewish antagonism. Muslims and Jews got along much better before the 20th century.

Another thing I'm wondering is why Iran even bothers with Israel. Surely they don't really care all that much about the plight of the Palestinians.

They care some. It also helps to have a local enemy against which to unite one's people. Then there's the whole "crusade" aspect in which the State of Israel is seen as a proxy for Western imperialism. Then there's the way Israel feels free to make military strikes into Iran.

[seanD]

The Western phenomenon of anti-Semitism is theologically, culturally, and historically different from Muslim-Jewish antagonism. Muslims and Jews got along much better before the 20th century.

Actually the hostility goes back to Isaac and Ishmael.

[RBerman]

Actually the hostility goes back to Isaac and Ishmael.

It does. But despite that, there was surprising (from a modern perspective) lack of hostility for centuries in many areas where the two groups cohabited.

[seanD]

It does. But despite that, there was surprising (from a modern perspective) lack of hostility for centuries in many areas where the two groups cohabited.

Perhaps from a worldly point of view, but I don't find it surprising from a theological point of view, being that God had pretty much neutralized the Jews for about 2,000 years as punishment for killing their own Messiah.

[RBerman]

God had pretty much neutralized the Jews for about 2,000 years as punishment for killing their own Messiah.

He did?

[seanD]

He did?

He didn't?