The present state of Israel and Zech 14

[RBerman]

You've repeated just about everything I've said before. What you haven't explained is why these issues, such as the border issue, spark international interest, including here in the west, with people who are typically indifferent about these matters. My explanation is simple: because it's prophetic and influenced by the power of God and his word (i.e. Zech 12).

The geopolitics of the Middle East will necessarily interest the West because of all the oil there. That too seems a simple explanation.

And so you believe the reason we support Israel is because of eschatology? So when Reagen, Bush and Obama pledge their unfailing support of Israel, they're doing it because of their eschatological beliefs? This is what you implied before.

Rarely do people act for only a single reason. But yes, I do believe that the religious beliefs of our leaders play into their actions. One would certainly hope so!

[seanD]

The geopolitics of the Middle East will necessarily interest the West because of all the oil there. That too seems a simple explanation.



Rarely do people act for only a single reason. But yes, I do believe that the religious beliefs of our leaders play into their actions. One would certainly hope so!

The issues concerning Israel have nothing to do with oil, cf. post #22. We've come full circle. So Obama has eschatological motives behind Israel. Fair enough.

[RBerman]

The issues concerning Israel have nothing to do with oil, cf. post #22. We've come full circle. So Obama has eschatological motives behind Israel. Fair enough.

You do keep saying that Israel has nothing to do with oil. I don't know on what basis, though. The nations which are unhappy about the existence of Israel are some of the most oil-rich in the world. How can their oil be irrelevant when gauging the import of their displeasure?

[seanD]

You do keep saying that Israel has nothing to do with oil. I don't know on what basis, though. The nations which are unhappy about the existence of Israel are some of the most oil-rich in the world. How can their oil be irrelevant when gauging the import of their displeasure?

Okay, I'll reiterate lol.

Border issue -- not related to oil
Religious controversy, conflicts and riots about Jerusalem -- not related to oil.
Very prevalent hostility (including in the west, particularly those on the political left) and suspicious theories about Israel's control over western politics -- not related to oil.
Potential global conflict sparked by Israel and Iran -- not related to oil.

[RBerman]

Okay, I'll reiterate lol.

Border issue -- not related to oil
Religious controversy, conflicts and riots about Jerusalem -- not related to oil.
Very prevalent hostility (including in the west, particularly those on the political left) and suspicious theories about Israel's control over western politics -- not related to oil.
Potential global conflict sparked by Israel and Iran -- not related to oil.

It's true that the conflict itself is not about oil But the implications of all those things are very related to oil, since the countries involved have the oil.

[seanD]

It's true that the conflict itself is not about oil But the implications of all those things are very related to oil, since the countries involved have the oil.

I don't see even where the implications relate to oil. Not even on a local level (i.e. disputes over oil fields, oil contracts, etc.). Maybe this has some truth with the Iran situation. But this is assuming Iran is getting harassed based on other things than they're telling us. This is highly likely, but I think it involves other things than just oil, such as strategic moves against Russia and China. But even assuming the implications are about oil; that isn't how we got here in the first place (i.e. the situation in the 40's-60's), nor is it relevant in the grander scheme, or in the sense that it doesn't lessen the fact that Israel is at the center of international attention in relation to biblical prophecy. IOW, it doesn't matter what God used to get us here; the fact is, we're here.

[RBerman]

I don't see even where the implications relate to oil. Not even on a local level (i.e. disputes over oil fields, oil contracts, etc.). Maybe this has some truth with the Iran situation. But this is assuming Iran is getting harassed based on other things than they're telling us. This is highly likely, but I think it involves other things than just oil, such as strategic moves against Russia and China. But even assuming the implications are about oil; that isn't how we got here in the first place (i.e. the situation in the 40's-60's), nor is it relevant in the grander scheme, or in the sense that it doesn't lessen the fact that Israel is at the center of international attention in relation to biblical prophecy. IOW, it doesn't matter what God used to get us here; the fact is, we're here.

We are indeed here. It just doesn't surprise me that we're here, given that we support a nation whose very existence is a negative symbol of Western intervention by its neighbors, who control a resource we greatly covet.

[maudman]

It would be interesting to figure out the mathematical odds of Israel's restoration to the Jews after 2,000 years of turmoil and the territory exchanging several hands during that period. When this is correlated with OT prophecy, I'm guessing the odds are pretty high against it being a historical fluke. But then when you add to that the fact how the Jews recaptured Israel (against all odds) and the fact that they are literally surrounded by hostile foes from all sides, on top of the fact that the world views Israel in a very inhospitable light. Are preterists really comfortable dismissing all that as a fluke? I would have a very hard time finding rationales to dismiss all that personally, not just theologically but historically. I'm really interested how you, as a preterist, explain those odds if not a fulfillment of prophecy.

Hello SeanD,

In my mind Christ came to fullfil the Prophetic vision of Promise to Abraham and his Seed not seeds as Paul states.. All of Israels Promises were fulfilled in CHrist, no?? For what ends one might ask? One might ask did Christ perdict the Israelite Jerusalem senario where it is today? I think my self he did in one sentence.. But what one has to ask is, Why is it more of a warning seemingly? Is all this the will or the works of the Lord or something else? There are many prophetic messages about things happening in the future in their time and none of them are his works. In the Preterest view the the Promises have been kept and Fulfilled as Prophesied in Gods Blessings.. Binding the two houses in one chord is the CHristian Faith itself.. One might ask what has God gained by Allowing Israel to inhabit Jerusalem.. What has it done for the Will of God? Because something is? Doesn't mean God is doing it.. It can simply mean that God has allowed it and Christ makes the Apostles aware of it..

[seanD]

Hello SeanD,

In my mind Christ came to fullfil the Prophetic vision of Promise to Abraham and his Seed not seeds as Paul states.. All of Israels Promises were fulfilled in CHrist, no?? For what ends one might ask? One might ask did Christ perdict the Israelite Jerusalem senario where it is today? I think my self he did in one sentence.. But what one has to ask is, Why is it more of a warning seemingly? Is all this the will or the works of the Lord or something else? There are many prophetic messages about things happening in the future in their time and none of them are his works. In the Preterest view the the Promises have been kept and Fulfilled as Prophesied in Gods Blessings.. Binding the two houses in one chord is the CHristian Faith itself.. One might ask what has God gained by Allowing Israel to inhabit Jerusalem.. What has it done for the Will of God? Because something is? Doesn't mean God is doing it.. It can simply mean that God has allowed it and Christ makes the Apostles aware of it..

Hey maudman, I believe Christ was part of a double fulfillment. If the Jews had accepted Christ, then the Jews would have fulfilled the promises, Israel would have been restored and through them, salvation would have spread to the Gentile nations. But their rejection modified these plans and caused a double happening. My personal belief was that God left the window of opportunity for that open until 70 CE. I'm forced to believe this because when the disciples asked Jesus if he would fulfill the promises given to Israel, he never rejected or dismissed those promises (Acts 1:6-7), in fact, clearly implied that there was unfinished business with those promises, when he could have easily said that THEY were the fulfillment instead. Obviously they had prophecies such as Ezekiel 37:21-24 and others in mind when they asked him this. Now if Israel had never been established as a nation in 1948 then I'd have some reservations. But the fact it became a nation again only amplifies Acts 1:6-7. Then, considering the strange circumstances of how it came into being, on top of the fact that the nation has been on the international radar and the catalyst of international affairs ever since makes me seriously wonder how anyone can sensibly dismiss all that. I have to be honest and admit that it really makes me question the integrity of that dismissal and those who believe it.

[maudman]

Hey maudman, I believe Christ was part of a double fulfillment. If the Jews had accepted Christ, then the Jews would have fulfilled the promises, Israel would have been restored and through them, salvation would have spread to the Gentile nations. But their rejection modified these plans and caused a double happening. My personal belief was that God left the window of opportunity for that open until 70 CE. I'm forced to believe this because when the disciples asked Jesus if he would fulfill the promises given to Israel, he never rejected or dismissed those promises (Acts 1:6-7), in fact, clearly implied that there was unfinished business with those promises, when he could have easily said that THEY were the fulfillment instead. Obviously they had prophecies such as Ezekiel 37:21-24 and others in mind when they asked him this. Now if Israel had never been established as a nation in 1948 then I'd have some reservations. But the fact it became a nation again only amplifies Acts 1:6-7. Then, considering the strange circumstances of how it came into being, on top of the fact that the nation has been on the international radar and the catalyst of international affairs ever since makes me seriously wonder how anyone can sensibly dismiss all that. I have to be honest and admit that it really makes me question the integrity of that dismissal and those who believe it.

Hey SeanD,,

First I like your post.. Yes there is unfinished business.. But what was the business that Jesus was doing Specifically? There is a duality in scripture.. What was being fulfilled was the completion of an existing covnenant.. "I make a knew covenant" not another one... is the phrase.. God was redeeming from original sin through a particular branch of the Adamic man those who had fallen.. Remember Paul.. Not all that was in israel was israel.. May I ask who are the ones he's refering to that aren't israel that are calling themselves Israel.. Sorry I don't have time for more but enjoyed your post..

[franktalk]

It's not a historical fluke at all. It's a self-fuliflling prophecy, enforced by an American gun wielded by a dispensational arm. That is, dispensationalists thought this was supposed to happen, so they made it happen.

So now the question must be was there any spiritual powers behind the making of America? Then going back again and again with all events until we get back to the prophet. So in your view one guy said something a long time ago and the world has been a puppet for his idea ever since? Is this the way you view all prophecy or just the ones you don't agree with.

[RBerman]

So now the question must be was there any spiritual powers behind the making of America? Then going back again and again with all events until we get back to the prophet. So in your view one guy said something a long time ago and the world has been a puppet for his idea ever since? Is this the way you view all prophecy or just the ones you don't agree with.

I don't understand the question. First off, only a small fraction of prophecies (messages from God) are predictive in nature. Obviously not all predictive prophecies are self-fulfilling. Some aren't even obvious until after they've happened. But as best I can tell, the Bible does not mention America at all.

[Rach1370]

Hey guys, I'm new here...hope you don't mind if I jump in. I'm not a Preterist, but nor am I a dispie. So while I believe that the Church is the 'true Israel' I can't help but think that God is maybe not done with national Israel too. It does seem to be just too much of a coincidence that Israel, after being scattered and persecuted for so long, have come back to form a nation in that very land. That it's surrounded by enemies, who seem to outnumber them wildly, but still they hold steady. It seems too much for such a small people and small country to have such a big stage in the world, that it's simple decisions should be a matter of conversation and political fire-storms. And I can't help but wonder what message it would send for national Israel...they who have denied Christ for so long, to come to a resounding awareness that Jesus is indeed their long awaited Messiah. It would be a powerful thing, don't you think??
I suppose all we can do is wait and pray for them as a people...hoping that many will indeed become our brothers and sisters in Christ.

[franktalk]

• Edited by a Moderator •

[Darfius]

Hey guys, I'm new here...hope you don't mind if I jump in. I'm not a Preterist, but nor am I a dispie. So while I believe that the Church is the 'true Israel' I can't help but think that God is maybe not done with national Israel too. It does seem to be just too much of a coincidence that Israel, after being scattered and persecuted for so long, have come back to form a nation in that very land. That it's surrounded by enemies, who seem to outnumber them wildly, but still they hold steady. It seems too much for such a small people and small country to have such a big stage in the world, that it's simple decisions should be a matter of conversation and political fire-storms. And I can't help but wonder what message it would send for national Israel...they who have denied Christ for so long, to come to a resounding awareness that Jesus is indeed their long awaited Messiah. It would be a powerful thing, don't you think??
I suppose all we can do is wait and pray for them as a people...hoping that many will indeed become our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Welcome to TWeb, Rach.

My own beliefs concerning modern Israel were similar to yours a few years ago. I had a somewhat nebulous idea that maybe God "wasn't done" with them, but upon further examination of Romans 11, I realized that Paul was crystal clear about the fact that God definitely was not done with Abraham's physical descendants, precisely because they were his physical descendants. It is on account of the patriarchs...

It subsequently became clear that Christians had failed just as miserably as the Jews to be "a nation of kings and priests" and that perhaps God's plan all along had been to "reunite the tribes" so to speak and help Christians and Jews do together what neither could do alone. I think that is something like what Paul meant when he spoke of the branches being grafted to the same tree.